Cap & Trade

[Tarlam!]

wow I'm dumb, I thought he was being serious.

Well, yours was a serious answer. Now you play all coy and sarcastic. Too cute.

"bah, he's got no upside", The Packers were saying, "We're going to stand by this guy, get him ready. He has IT"

I always cringe with the "it" factor. You post your opinions with such authority, JH, I really marvel at your self-confidence.

He's going to get us a pick. I'd bet on it.

Of course, a comp. pick.

[MadtownPacker]

Yeah. MM and Tom Clements might be the best QB coaching duo in the NFL right now. The Packers have really helped Flynn along. When many GMs were saying, "bah, he's got no upside", The Packers were saying, "We're going to stand by this guy, get him ready. He has IT"

Flynn actually played a full year of college football and won a championship. Cassell was never even a starting college QB. Flynn has over 1,000 yards passing in the NFL and a 93 QB rating. I've watched Cassell play. He makes stupid mistakes. Flynn plays fast, plays with tempo. He seems to push the pace, more like Brady or Brees. AR and Manning take their time at the line. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Flynn is a good athlete, tough, smart, good in the lockerroom. He's going to get us a pick. I'd bet on it.

Solid post. I agree that Flynn will play along and everyone will come out a winner.

[Brandon494]

Well, yours was a serious answer. Now you play all coy and sarcastic.

I just said I thought he was being serious so of course I gave a serious answer lmao

[Fritz]

One point many have made here is that Flynn has limited experience. However, I don't think that will be held against him, for two reasons: one, his two starts were against good teams and his numbers were very, very good, and two, that limited exposure will be enough to whet the whistle of many GM's in this pass-happy league.

But I don't think TT will make this move unless he, like Belichek, gets something tied up in a nice bright shiny bow that he feels is ironclad. He'll play it like he does, close to the vest. There are many factors that would have to come together - another team/GM that TT trusts, a draft pick worth the risk (A high second? A first?), Flynn's contract demands, and a sense from Jermichael Finley's camp about what kind of contract he wants, since Jermichael Finley would not be then able to be franchised.

[Guiness]

I'm leaning towards the Pack trying to find a trading partner and then discussing contracts with that team. The Pack could then sign Flynn to a similar contract and trade to the "trading partner".

You need to think about the backside of this also. If I am Seattle or Washington or Denver, I don't want to get in a bidding war that 1) I might not win and 2) I might win and be paying $7-9M a season for a QB. I would rather know the contract I am going to have to offer and give a high draft pick.

Doesn't really happen in the NFL, because of the cap and signing bonus acceleration. The upfront money would count against the Pack's cap as soon as he was traded.

There might be some ways to get around this, but we don't seem to ever see NBA style sign and trades in the NFL.

[jdrats]

Thanks for the heads up on the Silverstein article, but I think he's getting it just a little wrong. Here's the key section to me (emphasis added):

"General manager Ted Thompson wants to get something for Flynn rather than just let him walk in free agency. But if he knows Flynn is going to sign the franchise offer, he not only has to have the salary cap room to take on a $14 million salary, but he must know that someone will trade for Flynn before he does it.

He and negotiator Russ Ball will have to work with Flynn's agent behind the scenes to find a trading partner and then negotiate a deal suitable to Flynn. If that happens, the Packers would sign Flynn to that deal and then trade him."

I believe the way the Patriots and other teams made this work is they slap the franchise tag on the player, but the player doesn't sign it. Once the player is tagged, in theory his options are supposed to be to sign or sit out. The team applying the tag has exclusive rights. None of the salary details, etc kick in if the player doesn't sign, so it never affects the cap and nothing carries over on the team's books.

So TT and Ball will have to work with Flynn's agent to find a trading partner, but key is that Flynn never signs the tag. When a deal is done, they make the trade, but Flynn didn't sign the tag so there are no further hitches for the Packers.

A question it raises though is if the Packers use the tag on Flynn, he never signs it, and they get a deal done before free agancy starts, can they still use the tag on someone else, i.e. Finley?

[pbmax]

The NFLPA is the interested party in enforcing rules against using the franchise tag to facilitate a trade. Unlike the NBA, where Sign and Trade allows a player to get a larger contract than they otherwise could from another team, franchise and trade works to limit the number of people clamoring for a players services in FA and increases the cost of the transaction in the form of picks or players back to the original team.

Enforcement of the rules are tough as the player is still likely getting a raise and an opportunity and probably would need to lodge a complaint, or at least provide testimony for one.

That said, its in Flynn's interest only if he can top $14.5 million (the QB cap number according to A Brandt) guaranteed in the first year. So the onus is on the Packers and his agent to find a team willing to spend that kind of cash up front for a QB with 2 starts and mop up duty, who is also willing to cough up their 3 round pick or better for him. This is in opposition to the plan of waiting for FA to start, signing him to the same (or better) deal and not losing a draft pick. The Packers also have to have an interest in dealing with that team, though the list of teams off limits is probably smaller for Flynn than it would be for Favre.

I don't agree with Justin that Flynn is viewed as favorably as Cassell and Schaub, each of whom had nearly a season of starts under their belt. Four years removed from college means that championship is worth less than it was when it elevated him to a seventh round pick. But it takes just one team to pull the trigger like the Cardinals with Kolb. However, unlike Kolb, Flynn has the leverage of FA. If his agent finds a team willing to pay, that team might not want to pony up draft picks as well.

[pbmax]

Thanks for the heads up on the Silverstein article, but I think he's getting it just a little wrong. Here's the key section to me (emphasis added):

"General manager Ted Thompson wants to get something for Flynn rather than just let him walk in free agency. But if he knows Flynn is going to sign the franchise offer, he not only has to have the salary cap room to take on a $14 million salary, but he must know that someone will trade for Flynn before he does it.

He and negotiator Russ Ball will have to work with Flynn's agent behind the scenes to find a trading partner and then negotiate a deal suitable to Flynn. If that happens, the Packers would sign Flynn to that deal and then trade him."

I believe the way the Patriots and other teams made this work is they slap the franchise tag on the player, but the player doesn't sign it. Once the player is tagged, in theory his options are supposed to be to sign or sit out. The team applying the tag has exclusive rights. None of the salary details, etc kick in if the player doesn't sign, so it never affects the cap and nothing carries over on the team's books.

So TT and Ball will have to work with Flynn's agent to find a trading partner, but key is that Flynn never signs the tag. When a deal is done, they make the trade, but Flynn didn't sign the tag so there are no further hitches for the Packers.

A question it raises though is if the Packers use the tag on Flynn, he never signs it, and they get a deal done before free agancy starts, can they still use the tag on someone else, i.e. Finley?

Yes, that is the key and as long as Flynn agrees to the process, he might not sign. But the minute the new league year kicks in, teams will be spending their FA budgets, possibly limiting his options and contract numbers. The longer it goes without a resolution, the more incentive Flynn has to sign. To continue negotiating with teams, the Packers need to keep the tender on the table. But at any point, Flynn can sign to guarantee himself $14.5 million. That is where their interests diverge.

So it would be very important to have the parameters of the deal in place before the league's new year so the first thing that happens is that an agreement on his new contract is made with his agent while the FA money is still available.

If it doesn't happen fast, the Packers have to have the cap room because he will sign the tender before the Packers have an interest in rescinding it. Otherwise he misses the boat.

As was discussed about the Cassell trade, it takes a lot of trust and coordination. And remember, the trade partner, if they think they can make the same deal AFTER he hits FA, has every incentive to muck it up.

[Joemailman]

Yes, that is the key and as long as Flynn agrees to the process, he might not sign. But the minute the new league year kicks in, teams will be spending their FA budgets, possibly limiting his options and contract numbers. The longer it goes without a resolution, the more incentive Flynn has to sign. To continue negotiating with teams, the Packers need to keep the tender on the table. But at any point, Flynn can sign to guarantee himself $14.5 million. That is where their interests diverge.

So it would be very important to have the parameters of the deal in place before the league's new year so the first thing that happens is that an agreement on his new contract is made with his agent while the FA money is still available.

If it doesn't happen fast, the Packers have to have the cap room because he will sign the tender before the Packers have an interest in rescinding it. Otherwise he misses the boat.

As was discussed about the Cassell trade, it takes a lot of trust and coordination. And remember, the trade partner, if they think they can make the same deal AFTER he hits FA, has every incentive to muck it up.

Which could be Schneider in Seattle, or Reggie McKenzie if he's signed as a GM by someone by then.

[Tarlam!]

As was discussed about the Cassell trade, it takes a lot of trust and coordination. And remember, the trade partner, if they think they can make the same deal AFTER he hits FA, has every incentive to muck it up.

It is a pretty incestuous league. I am sure that screwing up a secret negotiation would have repercussions going forward. Also, the trade partner has to worry about other teams swooping in with a challenge to outbid them.

Depending on how many teams need an upgrade at the position and how many QBs from the draft will service that need, Flynn's value will be determined.

[pbmax]

It is a pretty incestuous league. I am sure that screwing up a secret negotiation would have repercussions going forward. Also, the trade partner has to worry about other teams swooping in with a challenge to outbid them.

Depending on how many teams need an upgrade at the position and how many QBs from the draft will service that need, Flynn's value will be determined.

Sure. But it still happens. Within the last few years the Bears torched the Ravens on a draft day trade.

[Pugger]

The NFLPA is the interested party in enforcing rules against using the franchise tag to facilitate a trade. Unlike the NBA, where Sign and Trade allows a player to get a larger contract than they otherwise could from another team, franchise and trade works to limit the number of people clamoring for a players services in FA and increases the cost of the transaction in the form of picks or players back to the original team.

Enforcement of the rules are tough as the player is still likely getting a raise and an opportunity and probably would need to lodge a complaint, or at least provide testimony for one.

That said, its in Flynn's interest only if he can top $14.5 million (the QB cap number according to A Brandt) guaranteed in the first year. So the onus is on the Packers and his agent to find a team willing to spend that kind of cash up front for a QB with 2 starts and mop up duty, who is also willing to cough up their 3 round pick or better for him. This is in opposition to the plan of waiting for FA to start, signing him to the same (or better) deal and not losing a draft pick. The Packers also have to have an interest in dealing with that team, though the list of teams off limits is probably smaller for Flynn than it would be for Favre.

I don't agree with Justin that Flynn is viewed as favorably as Cassell and Schaub, each of whom had nearly a season of starts under their belt. Four years removed from college means that championship is worth less than it was when it elevated him to a seventh round pick. But it takes just one team to pull the trigger like the Cardinals with Kolb. However, unlike Kolb, Flynn has the leverage of FA. If his agent finds a team willing to pay, that team might not want to pony up draft picks as well.

It will be interesting to see if there is a team out there desperate for a QB that will find Flynn a lot more attractive because he has proven he can play at a high level against NFL defenses rather than a kid fresh out of college not named Luck or Griffin.

[Patler]

Just so there is no misunderstandings regarding the article, etc.:

- Teams have to have cap space available from the time they present a franchise or transition tender offer. It counts against the cap from the time it is offered, whether or not the player signs it. If the player does not sign a franchise tender, the amount of the tender continues to count against the salary cap until the Tuesday following the tenth week of the season, which is the last day that a player can sign a franchise tender offer.

- I would expect Flynn to sign the tender almost immediately, because the salary is guaranteed from the time the player signs the offer. If he were to be hurt in off season training, for example, he would get the salary of the tender offer.

- Cassel signed his tender offer two days after it was given. He was traded about 3 weeks later. There was a lot of "yes he did" "no he didn't" banter back and forth about whether or not he had signed it, but after all was said and done the facts seem to be that he did sign two days after the tender.

- Some things in the Silverstein article sound a bit wrong, or at least are a little misleading if read in isolation. For example, his statement; " But if he knows Flynn is going to sign the franchise offer, he not only has to have the salary cap room to take on a $14 million salary, but he must know that someone will trade for Flynn before he does it." has nothing to do with the need to have salary cap space available. They need the space whether or not Flynn signs. The issue relates to their ability to revoke the tender if he does not sign. In other words, if they think he will sign it (and I don't know why he would not), they have to have a trade lined up ahead of time, because if he signs and then the Packers can't work out a deal, they are stuck with the salary on their cap for the season.

- I am a bit confused about statements that "NFL teams are prohibited from trading franchise players. In fact, the rules say you may not franchise a player with the intent to sign him to a contract and then trade him. However, this rule has been broken before and the NFL tends to look the other way." There is a provision that prevents a team from trading the unsigned tender offer. I wish he would quote the rule he refers to, I can't find it in the CBA. The contract signed by a Franchise player is a standard player contract with a term of one year. I would like to know where the "no trade" clause comes in. If any one knows, I would appreciate some direction as to where it can be found.

FYI - there are two possible Franchise tag offers that can be made, an exclusive tender and a non-exclusive tender. There is also the possibility of a Transition tender. Only one of the three can be used in a given year

[Patler]

If I am the agent for Flynn, why should I actively cooperate with the Packers to "tender and trade" until after the tender is actually made?

The best deal for Flynn would be as a free agent, to go where he wants to go for whatever contract is agreeable to him from that team. It may or may not be a team willing to also give up a draft pick.

Assisting a deal in which the new team gives up draft picks takes away a potentially good player from the team he will be playing for. It lessens the quality of the team he will be playing for.

If I were Flynn's agent, I would discourage the Packers from making a tender offer. However, if the Packers do go ahead and make the tender offer anyway, I would then cooperate with them in trying to get to a team that Flynn wants to play for.

[Fritz]

After reading all this, it just sounds like too many landmines and not enough potential return. Let him go, as we mostly all thought he would, and deal with Wells/Finley.

Then please Ted, draft a right outside linebacker and a defensive end or two, and not in, like the later rounds.