What free agent "risk" did Ron Wolf ever take?

[Patler]

Klemm is a solid tackle, that struggled in the Sherman "pull" system for guards, from all accounts I have read. This was clearly the wrong player at the wrong postition in the wrong system.

He does possess work ethic and has a history of winning SBs. That's a boon right there. He's able to conjure images to feed the imagination of the youngens. I liked his coming to GB, I wish Sherm's system was not so prohibitive to his success.

I firmly believe, he will be a remarkly improved player in the "zone" as will Barry by playing his true position at last.

I thought Klemm might work out as a guard this year, but I have read two different statements from the coaches that seem to indicate he will be kept at tackle. However, I do think he is valuable as Clifton's backup. That is not an insignificant role, just not the one he was expected to fill.

[Tarlam!]

Yah, well, I like having versatile linemen. The simpler the system, the more potential for versatility.

I am happy to have Klemm. He's a good character guy. He works hard. He is a little slow to improve. I am a little concerned about his motivation to come to GB. I think he perceives this as an experiment, but we were counting on him to achieve.

Still, I am comfortable with him on the roster.

[GBRulz]

Timmerman is one guy that I'll never understand why Wolf let get away. I mean he clearly wanted to stay in GB, yet he had indicated that the Packers never even attempted to keep him.

Wolf's specialty was bringing in guys who could fill holes when we needed. Hard to compare his situation to TT, where a hole here and there was much easier than the damn sinkhole TT has. But...ya gotta start somewhere and TT has the cash so let's pony it up already!!

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't know. I find this argument a little shady. It's easy to say after the fact that guys like Andre Rison and Keith Jackson weren't risks, but they could have blown team chemistry. To see what Ron Wolf was about you have to also look at some of the trades he made. Trading a first for Favre was a risk. Trading a 2nd round pick at CB who some thought I had good potential for a RB that not many people wanted, Ahman Green, was a risk. He paid pretty good money to a DT who disappointed in Tampa Bay after a strong rookie year, Santana Dotson.

[gureski]

Gureski; you kind of make my point for me. Wolf was never willing to offer a big enough contract to get Nickerson or Cox to GB, even though middle linebacker was a position of need. Sure he threw his hat in the ring, just like TT did for Vinatieri, Woodson and now Arrington.

For that matter, if memory serves me correctly, I think Wolf made an effort for Seth Joyner when he left Philly to go to Arizona. But again Wolf would not pay enough to get him, and only signed him 3 years later when he came cheaply.

My point is simply that Wolf was more cautious than some would now like to believe, as evidenced by his unwillingnes to pay Nickerson, Cox, Timmerman, Hentrich, Cecil, Paup, Aaron Taylor and many, many others.

Except for White, I think Wolf lost better talent in free agency than he signed. However, he drafted well and signed many less talented role players to fill the gaps.

I disagree. The contracts Wolf was offerring some of the players you mention would've made them the highest paid players at their positions in the NFL. You're not going to get every player you want. Nickerson, for example, decided to stay in T.B. rather then coming to G.B.. It wasnt' because Wolf didn't offer enough money. It's not like Wolf knew what the other teams were offerring and didn't top them. He made a huge offer and the other teams topped that. I think he thought he had Rison until Cleveland jumped in and stole him away.

I wouldn't say he was cautious as much as I'd say he was responsible. He didn't throw money away. Cautious is Ted Thompson. Wolf wasn't afraid to spend. He just refused to spend stupidly. The only signing you can really stick to him as a overly cautious approach was the Hentrich fiasco. Wolf just flat out refused to be the first GM to pay a punter 1 million dollars a year. He did that on principle and he said as much when it went down. He also later admitted that being one of his biggest mistakes as GM.

Paup was not an every down player for the Packers when he left for Buffalo. The Packers played a 4-3 and Paup was a classic 3-4 LB. Buffalo ran a 3-4 and could use him every down where-as the Packers could only use him primarily as a pass rushing specialist. He was a great player but for what the role the Packers were going to use him in.....he wanted too much money. That's not being cheap. That's being smart. Paup had more value to 3-4 team and the Packers were not going to change their defensive scheme to keep Paup.

I think the major dispute we have is over your terminology of stating Wolf was not 'willing' to pay for the players you listed. I think in many cases he WAS willing but didn't get the player and in other instances he had guys ready to take over that were future pro-bowlers so why pay contracts that made those players amongst the highest paid in the league at their position when you have future all-pro's ready to take over? Rivera took over for Taylor. Whale took over for Timmerman. Cecil became the highest paid safety in the league while George Teague took over his spot and went on to have a better overall career then Teague. Time after time...except for the Hentrich move....Wolf did the right thing. When he let guys go it wasn't because he didn't want to pay them.....it was because he had guys ready and waiting to play and didn't need to pay the players he had! He was able to divert the money he would've spent on those players to other spots on the team...like signing Desmond Howard who turned into the Superbowl MVP... He did that because he was so good at drafting and trades that he always had players ready to start on the bench so he never needed to break the bank on guys like Timmerman and Taylor.

So, again...I don't think it's so much that Wolf was unwilling as it was that he didn't need to offer high risk, high dollar deals to guys. It makes no sense to go down those roads if you don't have to. By the many high profile players that Wolf did go after it is obvious that he wasn't afraid to take shots at things. It's not his fault guys chose other offers over his. It's not like they were all in the same room and Wolf closed his notebook and walked out while others kept bidding. He made very attractive offers and the players chose to go elsewhere. The point is he did try and did put big money on the table. It wasn't a token try.

[gureski]

I don't know. I find this argument a little shady. It's easy to say after the fact that guys like Andre Rison and Keith Jackson weren't risks, but they could have blown team chemistry. To see what Ron Wolf was about you have to also look at some of the trades he made. Trading a first for Favre was a risk. Trading a 2nd round pick at CB who some thought I had good potential for a RB that not many people wanted, Ahman Green, was a risk. He paid pretty good money to a DT who disappointed in Tampa Bay after a strong rookie year, Santana Dotson.

Furthering this argument is the fact that Keith Jackson said he wouldn't play in G.B. AND sat out for like 10 games of his first season here in G.B.. That was pure risk on the part of Wolf to give up a 2nd or 3d rounder for an older player who said he wouldn't play for this franchise. That's pure risk right there.

Rison wasn't a 'nice' team guy in his hey-day. Thus the nickname...Bad Moon Rison. Just offerring (and finally bringing in) Rison was a risk.

[gureski]

Timmerman is one guy that I'll never understand why Wolf let get away. I mean he clearly wanted to stay in GB, yet he had indicated that the Packers never even attempted to keep him.

Wolf's specialty was bringing in guys who could fill holes when we needed. Hard to compare his situation to TT, where a hole here and there was much easier than the damn sinkhole TT has. But...ya gotta start somewhere and TT has the cash so let's pony it up already!!

Because he had Mike Whale ready to take over the starting guard spot. That's why he let him go. We've heard fans cry for an entire year that giving up on Whale was just a catastrophic mistake. Well, you'd never have given Whale a chance to play if you hadn't gotten rid of Timmerman. Why pay Timmerman 3 million a year if you have a guy making a million or less ready to start and play at a high level? The coaches and GM's know the talent of the guys on their roster before they hit the field. They let Timmerman go because they knew what Whale could do.

[jack's smirking revenge]

Speaking of Timmerman, how about Aaron Taylor? He went on to some pretty good seasons in SD, if I recall. My vote for bust is Ross Verba, only because the guy had a killer rookie year and I got a signed jersey of his that is pretty much worthless now.

But I agree with all of the posts here so far. Wolf was not the perfect GM everyone paints him out to be. He will always be remembered for his successes and nailing one of biggest free agents in GB history (White), but without some gambles that worked out, it could've went either way for him. He did let scores of really talented players go, took risks on some that didn't work out, and brought in players that were character challenges (Rison) that you never would expected. I do get frustrated with the criticism of TT because he's got a long-term plan and isn't willing to break the bank for a single player. He has done things that are reminiscient of Wolf and could be the next Wolf with a couple Favre/White successes. I would love the Pack to take a chance on Arrington and Woodson, but not to appease Favre.

tyler

[Patler]

Timmerman is one guy that I'll never understand why Wolf let get away. I mean he clearly wanted to stay in GB, yet he had indicated that the Packers never even attempted to keep him.

Wolf's specialty was bringing in guys who could fill holes when we needed. Hard to compare his situation to TT, where a hole here and there was much easier than the damn sinkhole TT has. But...ya gotta start somewhere and TT has the cash so let's pony it up already!!

Because he had Mike Whale ready to take over the starting guard spot. That's why he let him go. We've heard fans cry for an entire year that giving up on Whale was just a catastrophic mistake. Well, you'd never have given Whale a chance to play if you hadn't gotten rid of Timmerman. Why pay Timmerman 3 million a year if you have a guy making a million or less ready to start and play at a high level? The coaches and GM's know the talent of the guys on their roster before they hit the field. They let Timmerman go because they knew what Whale could do.

Gureski, Wahle was no where near "ready to take over the starting guard spot" when Timmerman was allowed to leave. Wahle started in 1999, but gave up more and more time to McKenzie who took over as the starter. In 2000 they moved Verba from tackle to guard, and tried to play Wahle at left tackle for a few games until he was again replaced, this time by Clifton, a rookie. Verba stayed at guard and Wahle went to the bench. Wahle didn't become a legitimate starter at guard until 2001.

[Patler]

How was Rison any risk at all? He was brought in for the 12th game of the season. He cost little. If he had caused any trouble at all he would have been ushered out promptly. As it was he was not brought back the following year.

He would never have been given a chance to be a disruption.

[Tarlam!]

Shamrock, you remind me of a poster over at JSO. The way you write, your style of arguing....

[jack's smirking revenge]

How was Rison any risk at all? He was brought in for the 12th game of the season. He cost little. If he had caused any trouble at all he would have been ushered out promptly. As it was he was not brought back the following year.

He would never have been given a chance to be a disruption.

Very true. He was at the sunset of his crazy career when the Pack brought him in and virtually HANDED HIM a SB ring. If I remember correctly, he went on to some mediocre seasons with the Chiefs following his stint with the Packers. I could be wrong on that one.

Do you think the character risks are different these days? It seems like character risks (like TO and McKenzie) have more leverage than the Rison days. I contend that the league is a lot more mercenary than it used to be. TO makes millions and takes his act from team to team. His talent backs up his big mouth, but it still seems different. Maybe its just me.

tyler

[Patler]

Shamrock, you remind me of a poster over at JSO. The way you write, your style of arguing....

Who might that be??

[Partial]

It most certainly look Rivera and Wahle several seasons to come into their own. It wasn't like they stepped in and were immediately pro-bowlers. Just wanted to note that.

[Patler]

gureski
I think we are msotly in agreement about Wolf. We are just using different terminology. His strength was in having a deep roster, something Sherman utterly failed at. As a result, he set limits for what he would spend to retain a player, and simply let them go if the cost exceded that.

Except for White, Wolf really never did "what ever it took" to get anyone to GB, and really never signed another high profile FA. He did sign a lot of role-players.

I acknowledged in my first post to start this topic that Dotson was his biggest risk. As I wrote, "ABout the biggest risk that I recall was signing Santana Dotson to a fairly lucrative contract. Dotson had been inconsistent at Tampa Bay, and was not even a full-time starter for them. But he was young, and had shown real potential (sound a little like Pickett?)"