The Cullen Jenkins Mistake

[Zool]

I agree with LegendofthePack... what this forum needed was a poster who is acutely wrong about everything.

A few months ago this thread would have had no discussion.

I've been wondering where Partial was. Prob got a new IP.

[pbmax]

Walker is an interesting story. Thompson did trade him but that was after resisting tearing up his deal with two years remaining on it even though Walker had surpasses it. That doesn't exactly qualify for new GM ego in the way Brandt explains it. Walker then had the rug pulled out from under him by Favre and he reported back to camp with Drew Rosenhaus in tow (DR actually encouraged him to report).

He then got hurt versus the Lions I believe (the event which illustrates the wisdom holding out) and asked to be traded.

Thompson later was said to have rethought his position on redoing deals that aren't in their last year. While it has not happened for every player, I believe some have had the deals redone earlier as a result of the bad outcome of the Walker decision. In essence, Walker was a learning opportunity for Thompson, not simply an exercise in taking credit for finding all the good players.

[pbmax]

BTW, this thread can't end until Bretsky shows up to tell me how we are being jinxed by failing to admit how much we miss(ed) Jenkins.

[LP]

Andrew Brandt wrote an article (either at his site or at ESPN) about NFL brasses and their egos.

Andrew happen to mention his own ego? Anything about getting passed over as president or leaving because he couldn't get along with Thompson? In my opinion, going to work for ESPN seriously damages Brandts credibility.

[LegandofthePack15]

Wahle, Rivera and Sharper - no choice based on the Packers salary cap at the time, the bonuses due to Wahle and Sharper, Sharpers unwillingness to renegotiate and the contracts each ultimately received.

Walker was traded for the 37th pick, which was then traded for #s 47, 93 and 148, with #93 then traded for #s 109 and 183; and finally 109 being traded for #s 115 and 185. To summarize, Walker was traded for draft rights that became Daryn Colledge, Ingle Martin, Johnny Jolly, Will Blackman and Tyrone Culver. Not bad for a guy who wanted to leave GB in the first place and was coming off a knee injury.

Arguably, they should have made the switch from Favre to Rodgers a year earlier than they did, and it certainly was not a mistake to do it when they did. They showed tremendous deference and patience with Favre and his annual "Will I or won't I retire" dance.

Barnett - someone had to go, too much cap space tied up at the position. Hawk was the more injury free, is not a distraction (not that Barnett was a big problem, but was a bit polarizing among fans and probably the Packer staff as well). It wouldn't have bothered me if the kept Barnett and go rid of Hawk. My biggest disappointment was that they weren't able to trade Barnett and ended up getting nothing for him.

Jenkins - you know my feelings on that one!

Sharper was more than willing to "restructure" his contract. He did so for 2 or 3 straight years prior to Thompson's arrival to help the Packers resign guys like Tausher and Clifton. When Thompson showed up he asked Sharper to take a pay cut. Big difference between restructuring one's deal and taking a pay cut. Who the fuck likes taking a pay cut?

Since you are the fact rat, prove me wrong. I'd like to see some math proving that it was virtually impossible for the Packers to resign Wahle and Rivera at the market deals they got from other teams.

Don't tell me Sherman screwed up the cap so bad, he created a cap black hole. If the Packers were in a cap hell, why did they have so much cap room shortly after Sherman was removed from his GM duties? I seem to recall the Packers starting league fiscal years with $35 M/$30M/$25 below the cap max, especially the $35 M the Packers were under just 1 season after Sherman's demotion. Lemme guess, Thompson cut ties with all the Packers' stars?

Bottom line? Thompson CHOSE not to retain Wahle and Rivera; He CHOSE to cut Sharper. The Packers were never in a so-called cap hell. The way the cap was set up, all Thompson had to do was be a little creative with it and he could've retained all 3 players.

Daryn Colledge, Ingle Martin, Johnny Jolly, Will Blackman and Tyrone Culver? Colledge? Martin? Jolly? Blackman? Culver? The question marks say it all: they're bums.

Favre's last season with the Packers: 13-3, NFC Title game. Rodgers' first season as Favre's successor: 8-8, Super Bowl Champs...oh, right, in order to make the SB, a team must first make the playoffs.

Rodgers took over virtually the same team Favre led to the NFL title game, and led Pack to 8 wins. 8 wins! In layman's term, that's called regression.

There's no doubt Barnett was, and is still, more productive than Hawk. The great Bob McGinn agrees with me.

Based on your posts, I assume you are a Thompson proponent. Kiddos to you for arguing your case. At least you didn't call me a "troll."

[MadtownPacker]

MFer dont ever mention that POS sharper unless youre going to say what a choker he was.

[sharpe1027]

Don't tell me Sherman screwed up the cap so bad, he created a cap black hole. If the Packers were in a cap hell, why did they have so much cap room shortly after Sherman was removed from his GM duties? I seem to recall the Packers starting league fiscal years with $35 M/$30M/$25 below the cap max, especially the $35 M the Packers were under just 1 season after Sherman's demotion. Lemme guess, Thompson cut ties with all the Packers' stars?

Besides clearing off those contracts you mention they had to wait for dead money to clear the books for screw ups like joe Johnson KGB and Reynolds. Thank you for making me remember those mistakes. Farve and green were about 15 mil just themselves.

Put your money where your mouth is and explain how creatively someone could have signed all three. I don't see how but you are the one making the claim so prove it or you're just blowing smoke.

Let me help you out. This site explains that befor cutting wahle reugamer and sharper they were nearly 7mil over the cap. I hope you are creative. http://sports-boards.net/reports/packsalarycap.htm

[Patler]

Sharper was more than willing to "restructure" his contract. He did so for 2 or 3 straight years prior to Thompson's arrival to help the Packers resign guys like Tausher and Clifton. When Thompson showed up he asked Sharper to take a pay cut. Big difference between restructuring one's deal and taking a pay cut. Who the fuck likes taking a pay cut?

Since you are the fact rat, prove me wrong. I'd like to see some math proving that it was virtually impossible for the Packers to resign Wahle and Rivera at the market deals they got from other teams.

Don't tell me Sherman screwed up the cap so bad, he created a cap black hole. If the Packers were in a cap hell, why did they have so much cap room shortly after Sherman was removed from his GM duties? I seem to recall the Packers starting league fiscal years with $35 M/$30M/$25 below the cap max, especially the $35 M the Packers were under just 1 season after Sherman's demotion. Lemme guess, Thompson cut ties with all the Packers' stars?

Bottom line? Thompson CHOSE not to retain Wahle and Rivera; He CHOSE to cut Sharper. The Packers were never in a so-called cap hell. The way the cap was set up, all Thompson had to do was be a little creative with it and he could've retained all 3 players.

I do not recall Sharper ever renegotiating his contract. You might be right, but I sure don't recall it.

Somewhere in the history of this site, I did a detailed explanation of why Sharper and Wahle could not be resigned at the contracts they got. I will generalize it from the data I have close at hand.

It started with the fact that before releasing Wahle and Sharper, the Packers were about $6 million over the projected salary cap, and at that time (February) the cap did not yet include any RFA tenders. It also did not include the required allocation for draft signings. Since room for that would be required by April, in reality the Packers actually dealing with a cap deficit of between about 8 and 10 million. That was in February, before FA.

To keep any of the three (let alone all three as you suggest) you have to look for areas of cap flexibility, contracts with the biggest cap hits that you could perhaps alter to gain cap space. The biggest contract was Favre's, but he was ineligible for contract revision, because the CBA limited the frequency of such things, and Favre had done it shortly before. I had an article link to support it at the time. Ahman Green had the next biggest cap number, but he was in the final year of his contract, and had no roster bonus component in his contract, so the typical procedure of guaranteeing a roster bonus would net nothing Several others had no guaranteeable bonuses to amortize, including Clifton, Tauscher, Driver and Henderson. It's only the nonguaranteed bonuses, like roster bonuses that you can do that with. During Sherman's time, players were signed with large signing bonuses, giving them a lot of guaranteed money amortized over the life of the contract, but it gave the team very little flexibility as their contracts matured.

The largest bonuses that could be guaranteed and therefore amortized were:
KGB - $1 million/4 yrs.
Harris - $1 million/4 yrs.
Ferguson - $1 million/3 years
Cap space to be gained from those three would be less than $2.2 million. Doesn't go far with the deficit they had to deal with.

The few remaining players with roster bonuses had very insignificant ones. Releasing Wahle and Sharper was the only way to gain significant cap space and overcome their cap deficit.

You asked how the Packers had so much cap space just a few years later. Some of the significant factors were:
- clearing over $29 million of cap space in 2005 from the terminated contracts of Sharper, Wahle, Joe Johnson, Hunt, Jamal Reynolds and a bunch of others.
- clearing another $5 million or so in 2006 from the terminations of Diggs, Luchey and the balance of Hunt.
- One year when they started the league year, when reports gave them close to $30 million in cap space, they only had about 40 players under contract at the time, so the number was meaningless.

Now perhaps you would like to provide the math to prove your assertion that "all Thompson had to do was be a little creative with it and he could've retained all 3 players."

[pbmax]

Sharper had just a couple of years prior signed his second and very expensive contract (he was top 5 paid safeties), the one that followed his rookie deal. And 2005 was the year it took a big jump. He was due, or had a cap hit in the neighborhood of $7 million that year. The Packers wanted to roughly halve that. Outside of his bonus, it was his windfall and he neither wanted to give it up nor delay it. He had not restructured before this year.

In Sharper's defense, he was not being asked for a simple restructuring (convert bonuses and salary to a Guaranteed Bonus to spread out a cap hit to later). They were looking for a reduction.

But in answer to the main argument, the releases and departures of the three and others left the team with a couple million so in cap room for the 2005 season (entering the offseason they were $6 million over). They COULD have kept or restructured either Rivera or Sharper (Wahle got left tackle money and was probably out of reach) with that much room if they pushed their money farther out. But they endured their departures precisely to fix their cap (clear space for dead money, clear large future obligations of funny cap money and have space to operate in season) and allow them to pay as you go which was Thompson's preference.

Redoing Rivera was not ideal as he was getting older and indeed did not make it in the NFL for the duration of his next contract. The money pushed to the back of his restructured deal would have tied up space for years. Sharper was a more ideal candidate for a restructure but he was coming off a knee injury and had not looked the same as previous years. He also looked like a risk.

Only until this year and I forgot who, have the Packers signed a player with more money at the back end than upfront in the first two years.

[cheesner]

As far as Jenkins goes - the stats don't tell the whole story. I spoke to a couple of Eagle fans, guys who would yet at their Grandma's for toast being a little too dark. They all said, of all the Eagle signings, only Jenkins was worth it. They said, even though he wasn't getting the sacks, he was their best DL, often getting penetration.

As far as Thompson cutting Jenkins because he wasn't 'TTs' guy, come on, man. TT resigned Jenkins at one point, so he became a TT guy there. So you can list a bunch of players that TT got rid of from the old regime? No shit! If those players were good enough, we wouldn't have needed a new GM.

[Zool]

I'm glad we have a new troll. Just brings up how much work the GM actually has to do every single year and how not a single one of us here would be any good at it.

Well with the exception of LotP15. He's probably the best there ever was as everything there ever was. He's clearly infallible.

[LegandofthePack15]

- clearing over $29 million of cap space in 2005 from the terminated contracts of Sharper, Wahle, Joe Johnson, Hunt, Jamal Reynolds and a bunch of others.

Its nice to be the "fact rat," eh? You can make up any number and folks automatically believe you.

Terminating the contracts of "Sharper, Wahle, Joe Johnson, Hunt, Jamal Reynolds and a bunch of others" (by a bunch of others you mean no names playing for the minimum, right?) did not clear up "29 million of cap space." A small percentage, sure. But not all.

The majority of the Packers' cap surplus came from the new deal with the networks. The year after Wahle, Rivera and Sharper left, the Packers started the league year with a surplus of over $30 M. Thanks to the new TV deal.

Everybody from Daniel Snyder to that cheap ex-Viking owner knew the cap was going to increase sufficiently the moment the new deal was signed. Hello, forecast!

The way contracts are set up with signing bonuses and the such, Thompson could've creatively retained Wahle, Rivera and Sharper. The Packers would be able to absorb their contracts in future years - thanks to TV.

I doubt Bob Harlan told Thompson to be cheap. The excess cap surplus indicated that Thompson inefficiently managed the cap. Worse, at least for a few seasons, Thompson struggled to find capable replacements for the aforementioned players he let go.

[Fritz]

]Its nice to be the "fact rat," eh? You can make up any number and folks automatically believe you. [/U]

Terminating the contracts of "Sharper, Wahle, Joe Johnson, Hunt, Jamal Reynolds and a bunch of others" (by a bunch of others you mean no names playing for the minimum, right?) did not clear up "29 million of cap space." A small percentage, sure. But not all.

The majority of the Packers' cap surplus came from the new deal with the networks. The year after Wahle, Rivera and Sharper left, the Packers started the league year with a surplus of over $30 M. Thanks to the new TV deal.

Everybody from Daniel Snyder to that cheap ex-Viking owner knew the cap was going to increase sufficiently the moment the new deal was signed. Hello, forecast!

The way contracts are set up with signing bonuses and the such, Thompson could've creatively retained Wahle, Rivera and Sharper. The Packers would be able to absorb their contracts in future years - thanks to TV.

I doubt Bob Harlan told Thompson to be cheap. The excess cap surplus indicated that Thompson inefficiently managed the cap. Worse, at least for a few seasons, Thompson struggled to find capable replacements for the aforementioned players he let go.

People living in glass houses, etc.

[sharpe1027]

Its nice to be the "fact rat," eh? You can make up any number and folks automatically believe you.

Terminating the contracts of "Sharper, Wahle, Joe Johnson, Hunt, Jamal Reynolds and a bunch of others" (by a bunch of others you mean no names playing for the minimum, right?) did not clear up "29 million of cap space." A small percentage, sure. But not all.

The majority of the Packers' cap surplus came from the new deal with the networks. The year after Wahle, Rivera and Sharper left, the Packers started the league year with a surplus of over $30 M. Thanks to the new TV deal.

Everybody from Daniel Snyder to that cheap ex-Viking owner knew the cap was going to increase sufficiently the moment the new deal was signed. Hello, forecast!

The way contracts are set up with signing bonuses and the such, Thompson could've creatively retained Wahle, Rivera and Sharper. The Packers would be able to absorb their contracts in future years - thanks to TV.

I doubt Bob Harlan told Thompson to be cheap. The excess cap surplus indicated that Thompson inefficiently managed the cap. Worse, at least for a few seasons, Thompson struggled to find capable replacements for the aforementioned players he let go.

The cap's adjustment in later years did not retroactively solve their problems in 2005. Still waiting for your creative solution.

[sharpe1027]

I doubt Bob Harlan told Thompson to be cheap. The excess cap surplus indicated that Thompson inefficiently managed the cap. Worse, at least for a few seasons, Thompson struggled to find capable replacements for the aforementioned players he let go.

Before you go making this type of unfounded accusation, you might want to go back and look at the Packer's actual cap usage every year. What you find might be surprising.