B.J. Sander cut

[Scott Campbell]

Mispost.

[esoxx]

It still irks me that Charmin burned a 3rd round pick ON A PUNTER!!!

Oh the horror.

tyler

I agree. I felt the same way when Ron Wolf blew a third round pick on a place kicker - and Conway didn't even make the team.

atleast longwell emerged from that debacle

Which showed that Wolf was a better wheeler and dealer as GM than as a draft guy

Yes, Wolf was a solid "wheeler and dealer" but he was also a solid draft guy. You mentioned some of the busts he drafted. Every GM drafts busts from time to time, it really not possible not to. The thing is, Wolf wasn't trading UP to draft those busts you mentioned whereas Sherman was, making it doubly bad for Sherm. Overall, Wolf owns a very solid drafting record, which laid the foundation of the "glory years II" era and beyond.

[mraynrand]

See if you can follow this logic, Scott:

Sherman was a relatively inexperienced GM.
His right hand man died of an MI after just one season
He makes some pretty poor draft choices as GM in years 2 and 3
Enter in new GM
New GM notices that picks from last two seasons are pretty poor.
New GM decides to get rid of picks from last two seasons because they are pretty poor
New GM cannot get rid of all picks right away because he must replace them with warm bodies, preferable, better bodies
Virtually every chance the new GM has to replace Sherman's picks with different personel, he has done so.

Ok you asked, so I'll see if I can play along with your "logic".

1) "Sherman was a relatively inexperienced GM."

Relatively inexperienced????? He had zero nada zilch experience - roughly the same amount as Tank. Flawed logic. Actually, you're logic is flawed. You're just proving my point that he had less experience.

2) "His right hand man died of an MI after just one season"

And I nearly died of embarrassment when we traded up for BJ. So what. Hartley's heart attack (no matter how tragic) is no excuse for Sherman's well documented blunders. Sherman never brought it up as an excuse, and neither should you. Flawed logic.

So because Sherman didn't use it as an excuse, it didn't affect him? So I guess people have to cry a river for you to think that something affected them...Flawed thinking

3) "He makes some pretty poor draft choices as GM in years 2 and 3"

Pretty poor???? And Ken Lay made some pretty poor moves running Enron. Flawed logic.

Nick Barnett, Al Harris (traded) and Ahmad Carroll (maybe) were decent picks. Peterson, Jenkins, possibly marginal. And some very poor lower round picks. Ken Lay's errors were collosal in his field. Shermans were in later rounds. Sorry, no solid relative comparison, only hyperbole.


5) "New GM notices that picks from last two seasons are pretty poor."

Tibetan Monks knew that Sherman's picks sucked. You certainly don't need to be GM material to see that. Flawed logic.

I don't see where this logic is flawed, except for the fact that you agree with it. Most of the picks from 2003 and 2004 sucked. Do you disagree? If you do, flawed logic. If you do, you contradict yourself and - flawed logic Plus, where do you get your information on what Tibetan Monks think, or are you just assuming again.

6) "New GM decides to get rid of picks from last two seasons because they are pretty poor"

Not true. There are still some on the team, and not every one of them sucked. Flawed logic.

Nice try, I didn't say all of the picks. I said "decides to get rid of picks from last two seasons" That statement is completely ture. You assumed (AGAIN) the ALL. Flawed logic.

7) "New GM cannot get rid of all picks right away because he must replace them with warm bodies, preferable, better bodies"

The new GM got rid of his own pick Bragg last year too. And that was even before he was done with your mythical Sherman housecleaning. Every GM wants better players. And there quickly comes a point where draft pedigree makes no difference in the decision. Flawed logic.

Oooooh, TT cut one of his own 12 draft picks. Your argument does not address my statement - TT kept some picks because he wasn't able to replace them in a single year. This is a simple one Scott. If TT could have replaced players with guys that could get him to the Superbowl, he would have done so. Since he did not do this, and the Packers did not make the Superbowl, it is certain that he did not replace all the guys he wanted to replace. Flawed logic again.

8) "Virtually every chance the new GM has to replace Sherman's picks with different personel, he has done so."

Thompson has only replaced players that sucked, as would any competent GM. It doesn't seem to me that the man who drafted them ever entered into the equation - unless you're into crazy consipiracy theories. Or unless your like GD, a confirmed Shermy apologist. Flawed logic.

What is GD? Since Sherman's picks overwhelmingly sucked, it was more likely that they would be the first to be replaced, and that TT would seek to replace them above and beyond other players. Simple logic, and has nothing to do with conspiracy theories ASSUMED by you. It's weird to call someone a Shermy apologist who says that many of his picks sucked and that he had two marginal to atrocious years as GM. FLAWED LOGIC

Or am I assuming too much?

Yep, you're assuming too much and thinking like your brain is on ludes. Ooops, there's that REFERence to Tank again.

[Scott Campbell]

I don't know of many people wanting to compare Sherman to Wolf just because Wolf drafted Conway in the 3rd.

[Scott Campbell]

Yep, you're assuming too much and thinking like your brain is on ludes. Ooops, there's that REFERence to Tank again.

Ahhh, well good then. We agree that Sherman completely sucked as a GM.

[mraynrand]

"Every GM drafts busts from time to time, it really not possible not to. The thing is, Wolf wasn't trading UP to draft those busts you mentioned whereas Sherman was, making it doubly bad for Sherm."

I agree. But this is only an opinion. I think you should keep your picks, and build up. but Shermy had a mixed bag trading his picks. Most of his trade ups that failed were in later rounds 3rd on down and when he traded earlier picks (#2 for Harris and a #2 to move up for Walker) things worked out pretty well. Two #4s for Glenn would have been worth it had the Packers won the SB in 2002, but that wasn't really Shermy's fault.

[Scott Campbell]

"Every GM drafts busts from time to time, it really not possible not to. The thing is, Wolf wasn't trading UP to draft those busts you mentioned whereas Sherman was, making it doubly bad for Sherm."

I agree. But this is only an opinion. I think you should keep your picks, and build up. but Shermy had a mixed bag trading his picks. Most of his trade ups that failed were in later rounds 3rd on down and when he traded earlier picks (#2 for Harris and a #2 to move up for Walker) things worked out pretty well. Two #4s for Glenn would have been worth it had the Packers won the SB in 2002, but that wasn't really Shermy's fault.

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

[mraynrand]

Yep, you're assuming too much and thinking like your brain is on ludes. Ooops, there's that REFERence to Tank again.

Ahhh, well good then. We agree that Sherman completely sucked as a GM.

I guess it depends on what you mean by completely sucked. Sucked as bad as Butch Davis? As Matt Millen? No. Sucked realtive to Belichick. Yes. Comparable to Parcells in Dallas? Close. Based on record alone he was perhaps one of the best GMs ever fired at .667. He had some very poor picks and some (few) clear successes. I'd say he was poor/marginal. But a lot of GMs that are considered very good also had years just as bad, if not worse than Shermy's 2003 and 2004, especially when drafting at the bottom of the first round. Just check out 1999 and 2001 for Ron Wolf.

[mraynrand]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.

[TPF]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.

Yeah, you can't blame Shermy on that.

[mraynrand]

I don't know of many people wanting to compare Sherman to Wolf just because Wolf drafted Conway in the 3rd.

I like this comparison, especially since Sherman shold have learned from Wolf's mistake, since he was around when it happened. Sherman takes a lot of heat for the Sander pick and Sander treatment. It's well deserved.

[BooHoo]

Well, I can't say that Sherman was the best at the draft. But even Wolf didn't always pick em right. It appears that it's an educated crap shoot regardless of who is at the helm.

[Scott Campbell]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.

Yeah, you can't blame Shermy on that.

I try to blame Sherman for everything, including global warming and an unstable Middle East.

[Scott Campbell]

Well, I can't say that Sherman was the best at the draft. But even Wolf didn't always pick em right. It appears that it's an educated crap shoot regardless of who is at the helm.

Some GM's (especially Sherman) are crappier than others.

[retailguy]

Walker did not work out well. We got a good year and a half out of him, and a 2nd round pick in return. The rest of his time here was spent A) sucking B) in rehab or C) sulking.

Sherman didn't injure him and Shreman wasn't responsible for him in 2005.

Greenday, er Mraynrand, or whoever you are....

You can hit all these people with logic, over and over adnauseum and it will never matter. Sherman causes them to "SEE RED" because he didn't deliver the promised land. There is no tolerance for failure in fandom.

If you look at the "big picture" (getting to the Super Bowl before Favre retired), it doesn't make Sherman's picks any better, BUT, it sure makes more sense than saying he's an "idiot", or a "poor evaluator of talent".

Had Sherman got the team "over the top" and succeeded with the talent he had for one run, which is probably all he had a shot at, he'd have still drafted "crappy" players and we'd still be where we are today, but the troops would be a hell of a lot more patient, with THE SAME SITUATION.

Ayn, just give it up. We've got a bunch of people here who have their judgement clouded and will never see the Sherman years in perspective.

Comparisons to old coaches and Sherman is just STUPID. Most of these people didn't live to watch Bart Starr, Forrest Gregg, or Dan Devine, yet they think Sherman ranked with them. Maybe we ought to sponsor some re-runs of old games while these guys were coached. Maybe Patler could compare the "talent" level of those teams....

Disclaimer - My purpose is NOT TO DEFEND the picks Sherman made, only to put the years into their "proper" context. I didn't like trading up to draft a punter anymore than anyone else here, but I do understand WHY he did that. You can understand WHY and not agree with it....