THE draft thread (2013 version)

[red]

I think Red owes Woody a big thanks

yup, he accounts for like 50% of the posts in here, if not more

i will say though, if woody were to break up each of his long single posts into 4 or 5 normal length posts, i would have made the favre thread my bitch

[woodbuck27]

It all comes down to whether or not you Trust in Ted. I too would have liked Brandon Williams as a nose tackle to hold that line, but I figure Ted knew who the guy was - knew scads more about him than you and I and his mama put together - and didn't think he'd help the team, at least no more than other guys would. So he traded down.

You see an orgnanization that has ill-fitting parts - Ted drafts odd-sized ducks whom Capers then does not know how to use; McCarthy and Thompson both like small offensive linemen who get pushed around.

I think Thompson is one of the top three GM's in the business, period. We just won't agree.

My hope is that another SB win in the next year or two will convince you that I am correct.

Just for the RECORD. I wonderd if Patler was trying to tie me down in terms of my concerns and DRAFT to some emotional bent and DT Brandon Williams.

That isn't the case.

I liked this prospect for obvious reasons.Size /strength MAX and a dedication to excellence. I considered his programme Vs say DT Sylvester William's football Program. For the longest while as I was working my MOCK I had Brandom Williams picked Round 2 Pick #55.

It didn't end up that way as I saw such need to try to protect Aaron rodgers as the most realistic priority concerning the investment that the Packers have in him. Also because Aaron Rodgers should be /deserves to be protected.

I imagfined that Brandon Williams would be off the board at Rd. 3 Pick #88. I elected OT Terron Armstead at Pick#55. I then concentrated on toughness in the middle...in Rd's 3 (Pick #88) and Rd.4 (Pick #122). My Mock addressed whay I deemed the Packers Four Priority Needs in Rounds 1 thru 4. I substituted SS ILB for 34 OLB as one of those priority needs. Hoping to find a solid targeted pick at 34 OLB later in my Mock Draft. The same for 'Feature' RB and 'Feature' WR.

I wanted a decent pick at QB (TT missed one there) and TE wasn't a priority. Given all the 'wanna be' TE's on our roster. I also wanted a CB but the bottom line I 'only' had eight picks.

By the way red >>> this thread is like the line between the fricken' English and dah Scot's and dah traitor Irish ... depicted in the Movie BRAVEHEART.

This thread has the potential now of being the keystone/cornerstone thread of Green bay Packer emerging history and Packerrats. The BEST NFL fan site on the internet.

Come on observers get in here and participate we need new blood. Help with the cause. That won't hurt you. You might get scratched up a wee bit. Come on in and join the discussion. Help... build Green Bay Packer forum history.

BRAVEHEART.

I believe some other poster made reference to that Mel Gibson 'Masterpiece'... yesterday.

Do you be knowin' red ... tha the term "Never trust an Irishman" has been credited back to that famous battle in British history? Well it's been credited to alot of times/places. Irish is Irish. The mercenaries of the world. Scratch a life or living any damn way yaa can. Just live life and never 'just' survive life.

What was that called..ahh yes...The Battle of Sterling bridge..... was it.....? Yes!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stirling_Bridge

That battle led by the famous Scot William Wallace 'of Reality or Legend' ... of Blind Harry's epic poem .... The Actes and Deidis of the Illustre and Vallyeant Campioun... Schir William Wallace. Ahh...

William Wallace ... much that is believed about him is probably the stuff of legend but I want to believe it. As the English can be such pompous and enterprizing fools. Not to insult any here of English heritage; but all the same 'just' saying and we all must own our history.

I don't want to be like the movie BRAVEHEART and cause such a stir against any establishment.

By the way... if William Wallace ever existed he surely didn't wear a kilt. Shockin' isn't it. Alot of things get 'just' that way:

Expanded >>>>>>>> to some clear lie. I hate liers. I can't stand foolish trickery. I like straight up 'no nonsence' get errrrr done focus.

Start a journey >> you better arrive. Otherwise... it's verrrry tiring.

GO PACKERS !

[red]

my family not only conquered ireland in 1170, but after that time my family has bled irish green

[woodbuck27]

my family not only conquered ireland in 1170, but after that time my family has bled irish green

My Family:

Maternal/grandfather 'the Bell's' ... Scotland >>>N. Ireland
1400's ... 'shitkickers / artisians >>> New Brunswick, Canada Approx. 1820 >>> Shitkickers/artisians.

The Same with the maternal/grandmother Herron's 'artisians' '' and KirkPatrick's ... 'shitkickers/ artisians. Irish from County Fermanagh and County Donegal, N. Ireland and immigrated >>> Canada around 1820.

Paternal/Grandfather...The Wood's N. Ireland and in the British Miltary during 'the American War Of Independance' >>> New Brunswick, Canada just after that war>>> Military (mercenary soldiers) / shitkickers.

Paternal/Grandmother The Cogswell's Great Britian >>> New Brunswick, Canada, early 1780's

[woodbuck27]

my family not only conquered ireland in 1170, but after that time my family has bled irish green

Ahh ... Your of Norman Heritage Ehh!?

[Patler]

Just for the RECORD. I wonderd if Patler was trying to tie me down in terms of my concerns and DRAFT to some emotional bent and DT Brandon Williams.

I assure you, all I wanted to do was discuss, especially in regards to the draft, where I do little study of players before the draft.

I will explain one last time:

1. I pointed out that by trading down, TT eliminated the possibilities of drafting only a defined group of players, those chosen from the pick he traded to the pick he acquired in each instance.

2. I asked who the player(s) were that made it a mistake to trade down. My thinking was that if there was no player(s) to be identified in the group(s) created by each trade, then trading down hurt nothing. If it was a player picked from #93 to #108, then the trade with Miami hurt more than the trade(s) with SF. If you or others identified a few, or all agreed on one, then we could discuss those players and I could get a feel for myself whether trading down was a mistake or not.

4. When you identified Brandon Williams, I very innocently (or so I thought) asked if losing the opportunity to draft Brandon Williams was the key for you. Having Brandon Williams and probably Bakhtiari (after all, he was picked by TT ahead of both Tretter and Franklin) was better for the Packers than losing out on Williams, but getting all three of Bakhtiari, Tretter and Franklin.

5. At that point you accused me of being "tricky", playing "mind games", being a "homer" and wanting to cast you aside and/or paint you in a corner.

6. All I wanted to do was try and figure out what was so bothersome to you and others about the trades. What missed player opportunities made it so bad?


But, it doesn't matter to me anymore. As is typical for me this time of year, I have had all the "should have drafted....." discussion I can handle for a while. I am happy to discuss the players he did pick, but as to those he didn't pick, I really don't care until 2 or 3 years from now when we can look back and see how their NFL careers are developing.

[Bretsky]

It all comes down to whether or not you Trust in Ted. I too would have liked Brandon Williams as a nose tackle to hold that line, but I figure Ted knew who the guy was - knew scads more about him than you and I and his mama put together - and didn't think he'd help the team, at least no more than other guys would. So he traded down.

You see an orgnanization that has ill-fitting parts - Ted drafts odd-sized ducks whom Capers then does not know how to use; McCarthy and Thompson both like small offensive linemen who get pushed around.

I think Thompson is one of the top three GM's in the business, period. We just won't agree.

My hope is that another SB win in the next year or two will convince you that I am correct.

Who are the other two ? I'm curious to see who you consider the top 3 to be and which 29 he's a tier above.

[KYPack]

Woody,

Take it easy, pal.

The draft is ovah.

Focus on the ballclub, not all this draft stuff.

The sun will come up in the morning, no matter what.

[red]

Ahh ... Your of Norman Heritage Ehh!?

yes

[woodbuck27]

Woody, you were concillatory last nite and got all fired up again this am., eh?

I was only calling you out because you were using incorrect data. Others did too. If you look back in this thread, Ras was trying to tell you the JJ chart that's on the net is like the ol' one hoss shay. A great thing once that is now in the past.

You were criticizing a guy who is the master of his board and a great manipulator of the draft. TT turned his allotment of picks into 11 selections, some of whom should really help the club win.

But....

You could turn out to be right, for some wrong reasons.

This shapes up to be a great draft for the GBP, but there are many storm clouds on the horizon.

Jones looks good, but is NOT a sure thing. As good as his measurables are, he has a lot of tweener tendenacies. He's a small 5 tech and OLB cover may not be in his skill set, yet. I hope he surprises us, but a sure thing, he ain't.

The two backs are highly rated in any pre-draft breakdowns, but they both have ?'s hanging over 'em.

Lacy appears to be the complete package, but he is a plodder. And he plodded behind the best line in the country in college. At his best, he reminds me of Marshawn Lynch, but could turn out to be another Marion Barber.

Franklyn appears to also have a ton of upside. But he is smaller and has trouble breaking tackles at the line. You need to get him in space, where he creates problems. At his max upside, he reminds me of Marshall Faulk. But he could be another BJack.

And so it goes thru our whole draft, some good college talent, but there are chinks in every one of 'em's armour.

Don't worry about those value charts anyway. They are mainly a sales tool once the draft gets rolling. Teams use 'em to convince other teams to trade picks with their team.

It's the players that are the focus. All the other shit is strictly voodoo.

I have no beef with you.

If you got problems with me, I'll be right here going over the racing form for my Derby picks.

Maybe you got a value chart or two that can help me make some good ones.

Back to this KY:

Woody, you were concillatory last nite and got all fired up again this am., eh?

** I felt obligated to defend my position KY. A position/stance that I felt was defined yesterday. A position of totally finding 'for ' the Packers and 'Fair Trade Value' based in 'the correct Draft/Trade Transaction Evaluation Chart'.

I don't make BIG of small matters/issues.

I had used a TVC that in a specific anlaysis of the Packers transactions with San Fran. Wasn't 'in fact' used specifically in their transaction.Yet... is still used inspite of it's age and arguably not up with the times. The TRUTH of that is covered in LINKs that I provided in an earlier post to you as I recall it KY.

That fact was IMO proved by myself in a seperate post in this thread using a method or Chart for Fair Trade Evaluation from a LINK supplied by Patler. One of 3-4 LINK's supplied by Patler and 3irty1.

Using that reference and in my analysis I discovered vindication for TT and his team. Vindication for what I originally believed was carelessness in regards to attaining fair trade value. Carelessness that originally alarmed me.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. woodbuck27

I was only calling you out because you were using incorrect data. Others did too. If you look back in this thread, Ras was trying to tell you the JJ chart that's on the net is like the ol' one hoss shay. A great thing once that is now in the past.

I certainly in terms of Packer-San Fran trading in this draft used the wrong chart.

Such use revealed a rather large discrepency between Fair Trade value and actual trade value if it was 'in fact' used. Thus my alam. See above for my final conclusion after some further evaluation with the assistance of Patler and 3irty1. Thank you Packer fans. woodbuck27

You were criticizing a guy who is the master of his board and a great manipulator of the draft. TT turned his allotment of picks into 11 selections, some of whom should really help the club win.

We all I would expect hope so KY. woodbuck27

But....

You could turn out to be right, for some wrong reasons.

This shapes up to be a great draft for the GBP, but there are many storm clouds on the horizon.

Jones looks good, but is NOT a sure thing. As good as his measurables are, he has a lot of tweener tendenacies. He's a small 5 tech and OLB cover may not be in his skill set, yet. I hope he surprises us, but a sure thing, he ain't.

The two backs are highly rated in any pre-draft breakdowns, but they both have ?'s hanging over 'em.

Lacy appears to be the complete package, but he is a plodder. And he plodded behind the best line in the country in college. At his best, he reminds me of Marshawn Lynch, but could turn out to be another Marion Barber.

Franklyn appears to also have a ton of upside. But he is smaller and has trouble breaking tackles at the line. You need to get him in space, where he creates problems. At his max upside, he reminds me of Marshall Faulk. But he could be another BJack.

And so it goes thru our whole draft, some good college talent, but there are chinks in every one of 'em's armour.

TT and his team drafted in accordance with what they deemed best based on criteria that is to use TT's terminology 'classified' I would expect. Do I agree with all of his selections or his overall strategy?

NO.

Do I hope that this draft class turns out very satisfactory too excellent?

Of course I do. woodbuck27

Don't worry about those value charts anyway. They are mainly a sales tool once the draft gets rolling. Teams use 'em to convince other teams to trade picks with their team.

It's the players that are the focus. All the other shit is strictly voodoo.

I have no beef with you.

If you got problems with me, I'll be right here going over the racing form for my Derby picks.

Maybe you got a value chart or two that can help me make some good ones

We're all square if you understand and believe the above. I generally am sincere and certainly that over serious matters.

Later KY woodbuck27


GO PACK GO !

[woodbuck27]

I assure you, all I wanted to do was discuss, especially in regards to the draft, where I do little study of players before the draft.

I will explain one last time:

1. I pointed out that by trading down, TT eliminated the possibilities of drafting only a defined group of players, those chosen from the pick he traded to the pick he acquired in each instance.

2. I asked who the player(s) were that made it a mistake to trade down. My thinking was that if there was no player(s) to be identified in the group(s) created by each trade, then trading down hurt nothing. If it was a player picked from #93 to #108, then the trade with Miami hurt more than the trade(s) with SF. If you or others identified a few, or all agreed on one, then we could discuss those players and I could get a feel for myself whether trading down was a mistake or not.

4. When you identified Brandon Williams, I very innocently (or so I thought) asked if losing the opportunity to draft Brandon Williams was the key for you. Having Brandon Williams and probably Bakhtiari (after all, he was picked by TT ahead of both Tretter and Franklin) was better for the Packers than losing out on Williams, but getting all three of Bakhtiari, Tretter and Franklin.

5. At that point you accused me of being "tricky", playing "mind games", being a "homer" and wanting to cast you aside and/or paint you in a corner.

6. All I wanted to do was try and figure out what was so bothersome to you and others about the trades. What missed player opportunities made it so bad?


But, it doesn't matter to me anymore. As is typical for me this time of year, I have had all the "should have drafted....." discussion I can handle for a while. I am happy to discuss the players he did pick, but as to those he didn't pick, I really don't care until 2 or 3 years from now when we can look back and see how their NFL careers are developing.

Patler I'm sorry that it's difficult for me to totally TRUST you. I've observed you post for some time .You need to be right. I need to understand. I'm about getting it to BEST man. I am ... and have always been all about team concept >>> towords fulfilling maximum focus on goals.

Ted Thompson 'in my view', simply plunders along and fails to impress me in terms of what I deem is effective assertiveness. I don't know if he's anal or what; but it's simply rather strange the way he operates. I set any accolade or award or recognition aside. He's one very strange gentleman to me.

This too. I certainly do NOT dislike Ted Thompson moreso... hate Ted Thompson. That claim of an attitude towords me is an outright defamation of who I am. I'm far far removed from being 'a hater'. There's plenty on the record here at Packerrats that proves that's a fact. I'm not capable of hatred.

Any such claim of that against me is clearly a preposterous character assination ploy. A low life know little stinkin' to heaven attitude. The poster that goes there Vs me is clearly more than simply mistaken.

I'll take this to another level and my observations and you Patler. Maybe this will help you understand me!??

As ridiculous as this may seem to you or anyone here.

Over the course of what? ... 7-8 years of you posting and me interacting or observing you. Many times and please understand, that I do know the difference .... your NOT Ted Thompson.

Yet... you post in defense of Ted Thompson, as if you could be Ted Thompson. You've being very defensive. Very apologetic of that man.

There's where the TRUST issue. woodbuck27>>>Patler >>> LIVES.

Your 'of course' a solid poster. That fact cannot be denied. Your also extremely defensive of Ted Thompson, in my view. I've generally watched TT like a hawk. When he arrived I knew that the times... they were... a changin'.

I've observed far too much now in terms of Ted Thompson to ever totally TRUST Ted Thompson. See how that, as maybe unfair as it is to you >>> swings to you, Patler?

Now having posted that let me post this. It's me that has the issue here not you. Maybe in real life and mano o mano I'd enjoy you. We might learn something from one another. You might even get a real laugh with me .I'm as down to earth as it gets and lots of fun.

This is instead our reality. As we live at Packerrats. I accept the disparity. The challenge that offers me.

Where am I at today. Well Patler.... It's now a week less one day, from the time that all the picks are in.

I'll now go to some specifics so you at least can plug away at me if you need to. I'll dangle a fat worm in front of you Patler.

I'll present different views as well. Just some that I see. There are more.

Let's start here:

I was surprized that TT didn't use Rd. 3 Pick #88 or then Pick #93. I was so psyched again early Saturday for 'the Real TT Show' and in my view; the best I can still personally give him is a mixed review. None of these expert analysts were right there we're as deep into anything Green Bay Packer, as I am.

If I was armed with all the ten picks that that man had on Saturday. My draft would 'in fact' blow TT's away. Sorry for that Packer fans. It's not arrogance ... it's just that I put my time in; was fully prepared to watch TT like a fricken' hawk in terms of performance and he flat out let me down with his elected options in Rd. 4.

The exception is I loved his election on RB Johnathn Franklin. That might be TT's Crowning Achievement in his draft class. Yet that cost him about what he gained trading down once and then twice out of Rd. 3. He had Pick #88 and elected to slide to pick 109 and OT David Bakhtiari. That's 20 players he let pass by him. He did that right in the last heart of that draft.

If he uses #88 he gets a solid player, that should certainly be a better fit for the Packers 'as a Prospect' than the prospect with a lower Grade (whatever) than he selected at #109. He still uses #122 in Rd. 4 to pick RB Johnathan Franklin. Your argument is that TT's way wins because he gets two - two - two mints for the price of one.

How are we ever going to know? If the two OT's bust the argument will go. Well that's the breaks. My position and I believe that Wist43's position. Maybe? ...more posters position here; might be. Let's use Pick #88 in Rd. 3.

With the announcement FR. MM RE: the plans for the Packers OL. The only position that's seemingly secure is Center. Isn't that a bit wierd to you? Maybe Packerrats might have elected a Center at RD. 3 Pick #88? Those Packerrats may also agree to denying San Fran 49ers, any whiff of help by the Green Bay Packers.

Going with Saturday as it was at the begining.

Why not OT David Bakhtiari at #109 and use #122 for RB Johnathan Franklin?

A very solid WR was right there as well. Maybe a trade back into Rd. 4 Pick #125 for WR Quinton Patton, 6'0" 204, Louisiana Tech; Pick 31, Round 4 (128)

Good enough for the 49ers with a; 'I Guess Maybe!' Grade of 83.8? That WR was actually positioned so far up the board that some team might have comfortably picked him in Rd. 2 / Top Rd.3. That WR is easily 'a better prospect' with the accent on the word 'prospect'... than the two that TT and his team selected.

Maybe....read up on that steal for the San Fran 49er, Patler if you find time.There is a very interesting story about just how pleased/excited WR Quinton Patton was to be selected to join the San Fran 49ers. I would have loved Quinton Patton in a Packer Uni.

All that aside Patler...

Wouldn't that option at WR in your estimation... TRUMP WR Kevin Dorsey, Maryland and 7 TD's in two years and Graded at 50.1?

I see holes too below Pick Rd. 4....or at Picks ( Rd. 5 #159; #167 Compensatory; Rd.6 #193 and Rd. 7 #232 (all original picks).

Easily TT and his team could have improved RE: the better bet and use of Rd. 7 Pick #232. Did you see that QB that was sitting right there waiting to be snapped up? :

Rd. 7 Pick #234 QB Zac Dysert, 6'3" 231, Miami (OH)... a solid QB with a Grade of 83.5.

A rock solid gift, an absolute steal for the Denver Broncos. That's certainly the case in terms of weighng a prospect. If you have the time Patler... (again).... read up on that guy. I was well aware of him and so many that were on the board(yes my board) because I put so much effort into getting ready for this draft. I mean I busted my ass to be ready.

This too Patler. I too accept what TT and his Draft team gave to our team as a Draft Class. I posted a grading for their efforts that was Top Shelf.

How good could it have been? I will never buy into this :

Only TT and his Scout Team know the WAY. WOW! Sorry.....I'm not buying that.


GO PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

TT drafted some decent players, but there are problems. Just as there were problems with last years crop.

Last year TT drafted almost all defense, but each of the players wasn't a natural fit for what they were going to be asked to do. It was up to Capers to design fronts that took max advantage of their talent - Capers obviously did not do that.

I like Jones, but didn't want him b/c I didn't think he was big enough to hold up full time at DE. I like the idea of him inside on passing downs though, he has good burst and can create trouble - all depends on how Capers uses him. Capers has routinely misused Raji, so there's no reason to trust that he will do right by Jones.

I also like Lacy to whatever extent, but see the running game as being faulty b/c of 1) McCarthy's 3 running plays playbook, and 2) underpowered, poor run blocking offensive linemen. To me, the biggest problem with our lack of running game is the OL - which just got a major overhaul after last nights annoncement of musical chairs.

What really set me off about this draft was TT's trade down in the 3rd round. Instead of a tough run defender (6'1, 341 lbs Brandon Williams), TT traded back and picked the smallest OT in the draft. The Packers have a template for offensive linemen and that hasn't changed... that's disheartening.

I do see Lacy and Franklin as upgrades over Benson and Harris, but not enough to justify 2nd and 4th round picks when we have such obvious problems in other areas. The Packers are a passing team first and foremost, MM frequently misplaces his cheat sheet with the running plays on it, and the OL is underpowered and undergoing a major reshuffle - these picks are watered down b/c of all those other fractors. The persian guy and Tretter won't offer help anytime soon.

The one developmental guy I really like is Johnson. If the jump in competition doesn't rattle him, he's got some physical talent.

Wist43

What really set me off about this draft was TT's trade down in the 3rd round.

Yes. Just focusing there and projecting analysis, to his subsequent move (s) in Round 4:

What did 'TT and his Draft Crew' really mine >>>trading down 2X to neglect a pick in Round 3? It's tough to mine water with a shovel. Ted Thompson is obsessed with 'a watered down product'. It's not like he had a situation like Bill belichick; what? five picks, entering this draft.

TT had a solid >>> eight (8) picks.

Look at another team and it's GM (what may we learn?)

Bill Belichick panicked and traded down (Vikings) FR. his Rd. 1 Pick and didn't do great! The New England Pat's mined Rd. 4 # Josh Boyce, 5'11" 206 TCU Gr: 72.2 >>> a solid pick using that Rd. 1 (Vikings) transaction. All the same ... Was that move worth sacrificing a TOP 30 Prospect?

A GM should simply ask the same question of a 3rd. Round pick. Trade it for 'more likely' less!? Why? His why? has to be logical or 'plan focus based' ... work out in his future.

TT tossed an option to strengthen that 3rd pick essentially for 2X OLman that will ensure less in terms of ..... 'a prospect'. Even when TT chose JC Tretter he had several other options that would have been better (again) in relation to the term (prospect).

Then .... right after the draft we're learning that the OL will be shaken up. That shakeup ignores where we needed help...Center. Why not use Rd. 3 Pick #88 to select a solid prospect at the Center position?

Generally this and drafting:

You want to choose anything/ Do you go for less or more quality? What will generally last longer and perform better. Less or more quality?

Analyzing TT's decision to go pick 3 and 4 at OT>>>almost commits him to bye bye and at least one OT on our current roster.The EGO factor will RULE. I really believe that Ted Thompson is still on a rather steep learning currve.

I believe he has lots of room to grow as a NFL GM. He cannot fed forever off the likes of Aaron Rodgers who fell into his lap.A solid move>>> to snatch Clay Matthews. A great pick in now departed WR Greg Jennings. A solid eye for WR and James Jones, Jordy Nelson and Randall Cobb.

With the exception of TJ Lang and Josh Sitton at Guard and Bryan Bulaga TT's struggled drafting BIG in the trench's >>> OL and DL. I'm holding my breath and DE Datone Jones. BJ Raji isn't working out as well as we hoped. He appears somehow ... unsettled >>>lethergic >>> tires. Maybe he simply needs to be introduced to Geritol?

TT's best move was to use Rd. 3 Pick #88 and deny San Fran 'anything more'; certainly that for what >>> a 7th Rd. pick. NO !

Use that Pick #88. Fill your boots right there. Don't trade back 20 positions. That 'HOLD @ Rd. 3 Pick #88 ... the luxury of taking advantage of that pick >>> makes clear sense.

GO PACKERS !

[woodbuck27]

Woody,

Take it easy, pal.

The draft is ovah.

Focus on the ballclub, not all this draft stuff.

The sun will come up in the morning, no matter what.

Of course I will KY >>> but right now there are other things to focus on>>> get to right.

PACKERS !