THE SOFT Sally's MUST get TOUGHER

[RashanGary]

Oh, fuck it, talent is talent. I'd take Justin Smith or JJ Watt too. Any star player who's forte fucking up offensive players would do for me. I guess Bigger, faster, meaner is good enough. Just not at CB. Anywhere else.

[RashanGary]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-too-soft-to-join-nfls-elite-2b8e22l-187611511.html

Said about as well as you can say it without a dozen f-bombs. This off season it's time to turn the heat up on Ted Thompson. It's his job to get some killers on defense and a competent running back.

To TT's credit, he's competing against the best of the best. But in his own words, it's a big boys league and it's his job to be the best.


Our front office has been raided. Our coaching staff lost a big-time coach in Philbin. We lost Collins. . . . . All of those things, while not bad luck outside the ordinary in the NFL, are certainly bad circumstances, ones that are obstacles to get over. NE has had much of the same with the cap causing them to lose good players seemingly year after year. It's a tough league. They haven't been able to win SB's despite having arguably the greatest player of all time in Tom Brady. It can happen to the best. But at the end of the day, in football, there's no such thing as an excuse.

We need Ted Thompson to be a great GM this off season. We're on the brink. It would be a completely different story if it was 2005 and our team was on the brink of falling off the cliff. We have SB winning coaches, a star SB winning QB, a bunch of good young talent on defense and more than enough talent on offense/STs. This year we're one defensive personnel home run away from that elusive 2nd ring in an era. MM has to do a better job adjusting on offense. Clearly we had issues since losing Philbin. I'm sure there are things all of the coaches could do better. The young talent on defense will obviously be better in year 2. We have the base, ALL OF IT. At the end of the day though, it's a league built on special talent (QB and toughness to be specific.) We need special talent, the kind that rings bells and gives nightmares.

This will be a very interesting off-season, one where those few big decisions may decide our fate for the season. You're at the plate, Ted. Are you going to look like Ted Williams or more like a cuddly Teddy Bear? Like a big plate appearance in game 7 of the world series, this swing is as important as any. We're not in game one of spring training. We've made it to the series, and we're a big hit away from champagne and free hookers. A strike out now, and our odds at a SB ring shrink further than we want to admit. This is it.

[wist43]

JH, I don't think we have a good base b/c we can't compete in the trenches on either side of the ball - and the team's philosophies for both lines are seriously flawed. We've masked those definiciencies with a great QB, a high flying passing game, and gobs of INT's.

Teams have caught up to our offense, and if the INT's aren't there, we're pretty much helpless on defense.

The Packers as an organization value finesse players over physical players. We have 8 drafts and offseasons with TT; he's brought in one 2-gap DL (Pickett) in the entire time he's been here. ONE!!! I love Raji, but he's best suited to a 4-3 tackle, and providing inside pass rush. Capers misuses him as a NT. He has the size to play the position, but for whatever reason he is just not a dominate anchor in there. As a result, his effectiveness is stymied. Capers and TT needed to recognize that and find different ways to maximize his abilities, but of course they simply haven't done that.

If I'm BJ Raji, I can't wait to play out my contract and get away from Dom Capers.

I like some of the other guys they've brought in as well, but again none of them are suited to playing a traditional 3-4. Perry said outright that he didn't want to play LB. TT drafts him and he's playing LB - and not happy about it. Worthy is a good player, I like him too, but he's not a 2-gap guy; and Daniels I like as well, but again, he's smallish and has to be played in sub-packages.

Given what TT handed Capers - it was on Capers to make it work. He completely misused everyone - in every way. Miscast players and injuries aside - Capers was an unmitigated disaster as DC.

On the OL it is more of the same - run blocking, road graders need not apply. TT and McCarthy want guys who can slide, mirror, and hit a moving target in the open field. Sitton is okay, but he's really the only decent OL we have. Bulaga and Lang are both average players.

I was listening to ProFootballWeekly on the radio the other day, and they said Newhouse graded out as one of the worst starting OL in the league. We don't have a center, and Sherrod is a no-hoper.

They need to take a hard look at their core philosophies in the trenches. MM wants to run ball only as an "oh, by the way..."; and Capers would prefer to play a 2-4 nickel as his base. That's who those guys are.

It has to come down to TT and MM. They seem perfectly okay with trying to play flag football in a tackle league - we're going to get more of the same. They aren't going to change their core philosophies - and I fully expect our team to continue to be bullied by tougher teams.

[RashanGary]

I like Alec Ogletree from Georgia. I think he'd be a great fit inside on our defense. He reminds me of Patrick Willis with his speed and tackling.

We'd be able to stay in a more traditional 3-4 base defense if we had a guy like this. His speed is off the charts and so is his tackling. Kaepernick doesn't make this guy miss in the open field and he doesn't run away from him either.

If you played Clay, Bishop, Ogletree and Jones at LB, there would be no reason to ever go to nickle. All of these guys can cover, blitz and tackle.

[Joemailman]

At 6-3, 234, is Ogletree stout enough to play inside on every down? Or would he be another situational player?

[RashanGary]

I think he's one of the unique talents in this draft. His speed/tackling are off the charts. SF is the toughest defense in the NFL right now. They're not the biggest, not even close. They're the fastest defense and the fastest players get the most chances to light guys up.

[Pugger]

After reading this thread and McGinn I guess we do suck. To hell with these wusses. Let's get rid of the whole lot and get some new blood with both players and coaches. These 10+ win seasons are such a bore.

/sarcasm off

[woodbuck27]

JH, I don't think we have a good base b/c we can't compete in the trenches on either side of the ball - and the team's philosophies for both lines are seriously flawed. We've masked those definiciencies with a great QB, a high flying passing game, and gobs of INT's.

Teams have caught up to our offense, and if the INT's aren't there, we're pretty much helpless on defense.

The Packers as an organization value finesse players over physical players. We have 8 drafts and offseasons with TT; he's brought in one 2-gap DL (Pickett) in the entire time he's been here. ONE!!! I love Raji, but he's best suited to a 4-3 tackle, and providing inside pass rush. Capers misuses him as a NT. He has the size to play the position, but for whatever reason he is just not a dominate anchor in there. As a result, his effectiveness is stymied. Capers and TT needed to recognize that and find different ways to maximize his abilities, but of course they simply haven't done that.

If I'm BJ Raji, I can't wait to play out my contract and get away from Dom Capers.

I like some of the other guys they've brought in as well, but again none of them are suited to playing a traditional 3-4. Perry said outright that he didn't want to play LB. TT drafts him and he's playing LB - and not happy about it. Worthy is a good player, I like him too, but he's not a 2-gap guy; and Daniels I like as well, but again, he's smallish and has to be played in sub-packages.

Given what TT handed Capers - it was on Capers to make it work. He completely misused everyone - in every way. Miscast players and injuries aside - Capers was an unmitigated disaster as DC.

On the OL it is more of the same - run blocking, road graders need not apply. TT and McCarthy want guys who can slide, mirror, and hit a moving target in the open field. Sitton is okay, but he's really the only decent OL we have. Bulaga and Lang are both average players.

I was listening to ProFootballWeekly on the radio the other day, and they said Newhouse graded out as one of the worst starting OL in the league. We don't have a center, and Sherrod is a no-hoper.

They need to take a hard look at their core philosophies in the trenches. MM wants to run ball only as an "oh, by the way..."; and Capers would prefer to play a 2-4 nickel as his base. That's who those guys are.

It has to come down to TT and MM. They seem perfectly okay with trying to play flag football in a tackle league - we're going to get more of the same. They aren't going to change their core philosophies - and I fully expect our team to continue to be bullied by tougher teams.

and that...is all he wrote so.... you can fill in 'the rest of the story'.

We've got the wrong players (talent ) to fit the scheme or the wrong scheme to fit the players (talent/abilities).

Take your pick. Expressed another way:

It's ' a luke warm ' MESS. One that we cannot compete with. It's time for Ted Thompson to tear up the old blueprint and start again. He's commited and re-commited to that former blueprint and the results got us one Super Bowl and two fizzels.

A player here or there will not get us back to the BIG GAME. Sometimes it's alot better to take a step back if you really decide to move forward. As Packer fans we need to see hard decisions (big decisions) made in this off season. We need our teams leadership (TT and MM) to make those decisions in a bigger way.

It's not going to work if TT uses a bandaid approach to get Aaron Rodgers in position to win another Super Bowl next season. That goal should be a minumum three seasons away. What we are seeing in the Green Bay Packers is a team 'just trying' to keep up. That team will never keep up with the best.

We need to see 'a new vision'.

[Joemailman]

I think he's one of the unique talents in this draft. His speed/tackling are off the charts. SF is the toughest defense in the NFL right now. They're not the biggest, not even close. They're the fastest defense and the fastest players get the most chances to light guys up.

Fair enough. Keep in mind though he was suspended 4 games this season for reportedly violating Georgia's substance abuse policy, so son't expect TT to go after him in the 1st round.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1737114

STRENGTHS: A former safety, Ogletree showed off his terrific range and athleticism, making plays all over the field in 2012 and was often the best player on a defense loaded with NFL talent.

Terrific quickness around the edge, capable of making stops in the backfield and is fast in pursuit. Doesn't shy from making the big hit. Arrives with deceiving power and violent intentions. Lengthy frame, athleticism and experience in coverage. Has the long arms scouts like from linebackers.

Excellent special teams player whose ball skills were demonstrated when he leapt high to snatch an onside kick early against LSU in the SEC Championship game.

WEAKNESSES: Needs to be more consistent filling against the run and tackling with better pad level. Leaner than ideal frame. He'll need to show greater strength in disengaging from blockers. Off-field concern following a four-game suspension in 2012, reportedly for violating Georgia's substance-abuse policy.

--Rob Rang

[pbmax]

The Packers rarely play straight 2 gap. And their front, often this year, is aligned like a 4-3 Under with Raji at 3 tech. Capers has adjusted the scheme and put one OLB where a DE would be in a 4-3. They play a lot of 1 gap out of this. So its not just square pegs in round holes.

But even Pickett this year got overrun by double teams quite a bit this year and the problem of D players at different depths was apparent all season, not just against AP. That is partially a problem with strength and holding a double team to a standstill, but its also discipline among the front seven. I think Pickett's best days are behind him and the Packers have to think hard about what they will do without him in an effective role.

I do agree that the Packers try to do too much from a personnel standpoint. Thompson drafted too much speedy, smaller help for the pass rush that they have trouble holding the point. They individually are suited to penetration but that attack gets them into trouble surrendering big gains. This is probably a combination of ILB woes and that except for Raji and Matthews, the fastest, most explosive players are young and frequently not in the right position.

The too much sub package point made earlier is a little too pat for me. But they need to reinforce whatever they decide to play as base D. If they play a penetrating 1-gap, they need stout and reliable ILBs who will not get blocked by a lone Guard. If they play a more static 3-4, they need ILB who can fly and tackle assuredly on the move and in the open.

[Rutnstrut]

While watching the pre-game shows before the Niners Vs Falcons today I have noticed one thing. The Niners are built from the ground up to play physical football and WIN. The Packers on the other hand are content with barely getting by, this complacent attitude is most evident in the Packers front office and coaching staff. I actually prefer the Packers players and coaches of the 70's and 80's. Sure they sucked, but at least they had some fire in their belly. I really don't think this team has much heart.

[wist43]

We have talent, I actually like a lot of the players we have on defense - but most are miscast in a 3-4, and taken as a whole it does add up to, as woodbuck put it, "a lukewarm mess". We have 1 impact player - Matthews.

I remember a few years back TT saying that they'd transition to the 3-4 over time and acquire players with different body types. To date, he hasn't done anything to bring in true 3-4 players. He stated he was more concerned with just drafting good players regardless of how they would fit. I think that's evident given the players he has acquired are more suited to a 4-3, or subpackages.

Capers really doesn't even run a 3-4, he runs a 2-whatever/3-whatever. Our identity on defense is that we have no identity. If you're going to throw those pedestrian LB'ers out on the field, you better have a plan to protect them, i.e. you better have some stout 2-gap defensive linemen in front of them. Of we don't have those 2-gap players, and our pedestrian LB'ers are routinely exposed.

I like Woodbuck's characterization - it's a lukewarm mess.

[RashanGary]

Wist, you watch enough. I really think tackling is our biggest issue, particularly impact tackling, the painful kind. Our CBs can't play facing the line. They get blocked out of plays like they weren't even there and have no instinct dropping into zone coverage. So they don't do it. They play man and run away from the line. Why not, when they face it, they're invisible anyway. And then our safeties and linebackers bounce off players with their pathetic attempts at tackling. . .

Don't u think we have a serious tackling problem and toughness problem in the back end?

[pbmax]

We have talent, I actually like a lot of the players we have on defense - but most are miscast in a 3-4, and taken as a whole it does add up to, as woodbuck put it, "a lukewarm mess". We have 1 impact player - Matthews.

I remember a few years back TT saying that they'd transition to the 3-4 over time and acquire players with different body types. To date, he hasn't done anything to bring in true 3-4 players. He stated he was more concerned with just drafting good players regardless of how they would fit. I think that's evident given the players he has acquired are more suited to a 4-3, or subpackages.

Capers really doesn't even run a 3-4, he runs a 2-whatever/3-whatever. Our identity on defense is that we have no identity. If you're going to throw those pedestrian LB'ers out on the field, you better have a plan to protect them, i.e. you better have some stout 2-gap defensive linemen in front of them. Of we don't have those 2-gap players, and our pedestrian LB'ers are routinely exposed.

I like Woodbuck's characterization - it's a lukewarm mess.

We are getting closer.

[The Shadow]

What's Johnny Jolly's status? I would certainly consider seeing if he has gas left in the tank. He had some nastiness.