T.E.D's Packers Report Card: Offense

[Deputy Nutz]

6 did come in one game. After the 3rd one that clanged off Freeman's hands I don't think he gave a shit about throwing picks anymore. He just said "fuck it, I'm throwing it."

[Deputy Nutz]

The 60's Packers were loaded, it is not like Starr carried the team on his shoulders for a decade. He had a hell of a lot of Hall of Famers on that team.

The Packers had Favre, and White. I simply can't think of another Hall of Famer during that time that played for the Packers. The next closest is Leroy Butler, and maybe Darren Sharper.

[Joemailman]

The Packers' GOAT has a ring for each finger on his throwing hand. tinkerbelle's boyfriend has one and is the league's leader in playoff INTs with 30.

And #1 in yards and #2 in TD passes.

[Patler]

The 60's Packers were loaded, it is not like Starr carried the team on his shoulders for a decade. He had a hell of a lot of Hall of Famers on that team.

The Packers had Favre, and White. I simply can't think of another Hall of Famer during that time that played for the Packers. The next closest is Leroy Butler, and maybe Darren Sharper.

Yes and no. Again, hard to compare then and now. The League was much smaller, fewer teams, smaller rosters (40) and a lot fewer players. but the HOF has always selected their 4-7 players. The HOF'ers from the '60s were concentrated on a lot fewer teams. Yes, the Packers had a lot of them, but teams like the Bears, Lions, Cots and even Vikings of the '60s also had a lot of HOF'ers, more than most of today's teams will have. The Packers of the '60s were playing a lot of teams with a bunch of future HOF'ers. I'm not sure the same can be said for many of the teams Favre played against.

[Noodle]

I actually kind of agreed with many of the player ratings. Once you look past QB, Tank is not too bad about gradomg talent.

But as to the GOAT, for the Pack, it's Starr. Five championships, 9-1 record in playoffs (best all-time), and his 104.8 postseason qb rating is, incredibly, also best all-time, even though passer rating has gone through the roof since the early 90s. Check out his yard/attempt numbers (which in my judgment is the best measurement of a qb), 11th all time and way better than Favre, who comes in at number 65 all time. And he did all this calling his own plays.

Like Patler says, we're incredibly lucky to be having this debate. I doubt this comes up very often on Bear boards.

[Joemailman]

I actually kind of agreed with many of the player ratings. Once you look past QB, Tank is not too bad about gradomg talent.

But as to the GOAT, for the Pack, it's Starr. Five championships, 9-1 record in playoffs (best all-time), and his 104.8 postseason qb rating is, incredibly, also best all-time, even though passer rating has gone through the roof since the early 90s. Check out his yard/attempt numbers (which in my judgment is the best measurement of a qb), 11th all time and way better than Favre, who comes in at number 65 all time. And he did all this calling his own plays.

Like Patler says, we're incredibly lucky to be having this debate. I doubt this comes up very often on Bear boards.

Starr had some advantages though. Because the '60's Packers were a strong running team, play action was very effective and many of Starr's big plays came off that. Also, because Starr only threw the ball about 20 times per game, 1 or 2 big plays would boost the YPA more than it would the QB's who played in a later era. None of this argues against Starr being G.O.A.T., just that comparing different eras is hard to do.

[Patler]

And #1 in yards and #2 in TD passes.

And with the positive stats for yards and TDs he is (or was) #19 in winning percentage of QBs with 10 or more playoff starts.

In some ways, a player of many contradictions.

[Patler]

Starr had some advantages though. Because the '60's Packers were a strong running team, play action was very effective and many of Starr's big plays came off that. Also, because Starr only threw the ball about 20 times per game, 1 or 2 big plays would boost the YPA more than it would the QB's who played in a later era. None of this argues against Starr being G.O.A.T., just that comparing different eras is hard to do.

He also had a few significant disadvantages, too. DB's who could shove and grab receivers until the ball was in the air, OL who had to keep their hands in and against their chests while blocking DL who could use head slaps and a lot of other maneuvers now not allowed, defenders who could lay him out long, long after the ball was thrown.

Just more reasons why statistical comparisons 30-40 years apart are almost impossible.

[Joemailman]

And with the positive stats for yards and TDs he is (or was) #19 in winning percentage of QBs with 10 or more playoff starts.

In some ways, a player of many contradictions.

Definitely a player of contradictions. One of the fascinating things about him. I would point out though that unlike many of the playoff QB's ranked ahead of him, Favre did not have the advantage of playing all or the vast majority most his playoff games under 1 great coach. Starr/Lombardi, Brees/Payton, Brady/Belichick, Montana/Walsh, Rodgers/McCarthy. Under Holmgren, Favre was 9-5 (0-3 against a superior Dallas team), and his passer rating under Holmgren would put him 8th all-time. He wqsn't the greatest, but he was one of the greatest, despite the flaws.

[Travbrew]

Rodgers' career will always be pitted against Favre's. That's just the way it is. Right now the G.O.A.T has the upper hand.

Rodgers took the monkey off his back by winning SB 45 with a 10-6 team, a team that lost to hapless, tasteless teams like Washington, Detroit and Miami. But Rodgers is still living in the shadow of the G.O.A.T, Brett Favre. Just compare the facts and you'll see why.

Yes, let's compare facts.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/the-definitive-list-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks/6376/

1. BART STARR (Green Bay, 1956-71)

Best season (1966): 156 for 251 (62.2%), 2,257 yards, 9.0 YPA, 14 TD, 3 INT, 105.0 passer rating

Career: 1,808 for 3,149 (57.4%), 24,718 yards, 7.8 YPA, 152 TD, 138 INT, 80.5 passer rating

Championships: 1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967

Overview: That's right. Bart Starr. The greatest quarterback in the history of the game.



Sit down and take notes:



History has done a grave disservice to the legacy of Starr, the 17th-round draft pick out of pre-Bear Bryant Alabama who turned into the most clutch and most cruelly efficient passing assassin of his or any other generation.



History remembers Starr's legendary coach, and the bevy of Hall of Fame talent that surrounded him. It forgets that Starr was Lombardi's second in command, a tremendous big-game performer, and that the Packers of the 1960s would have been just another team without the prolific Starr as their beloved on-field leader. Instead, they won five NFL championships, with Starr at the helm of every single one of those title teams, while he crafted an NFL-record 9-1 postseason mark. The rings say it all: Starr is the only quarterback in history who has one for every finger on his throwing hand.



And even if you listen to teammates today, they make it pretty clear that they would have fallen on a grenade for Starr. Leadership is an elemental piece of quarterbacking – probably more important than gaudy passing stats. And that love his teammates had for their field general is an incredible sign of his leadership.



But forget, for a moment, the team accomplishments and the "intangibles" of leadership.



If you want to talk passing and statistics, we'll put Starr up against anybody. Anybody.



He led the NFL in passer rating five times. Johnny Unitas led the league in passer rating just twice. Ditto Joe Montana. Only Steve Young surpassed Starr's mark (six).



And, lest we forget, Starr was the best postseason passer in NFL history, as evidenced by his record 104.8 playoff passer rating and 1.41 percent interception rate, also a postseason record (CHFF readers are well aware of the importance of not throwing picks in the playoffs). Starr played in an era when 80 was a decent passer rating. Yet he still performed more efficiently in the playoffs than folks such as Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Young and ... well, anybody, ever.



There's a cause and effect here, folks: NFL's greatest dynasty, only winners of three-straight title games, and a record 9-1 postseason mark. And there, underlying it all, is Starr with his postseason passing records. The two are intricately intertwined.



History also remembers Starr's Packers as a great running team, and that's certainly true of their earlier years. But the truth is that they typically passed the ball more effectively than they ran it, especially during their run of three straight, when they were a below-average running team.



In their 1965 championship season, the Packers were 11th in the 14-team league with an average of 3.4 yards per rushing attempt. They were second in the league, with an average of 8.2 yards per passing attempt.



In their 1966 championship season, the Packers were 14th in the 15-team league, with an average of 3.5 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.9 yards per passing attempt.



In their 1967 championship season, the Packers were 4th in the 16-team league, with an average of 4.0 yards per rushing attempt. They were first in the league, with an average of 8.3 yards per passing attempt (Starr himself that season averaged 8.7 YPA).



Starr averaged a remarkable 7.85 YPA over the course of his entire career, the 8th-best mark in history, and better than that of a slate of quarterbacks who are generally regarded as the best passers in history, including Dan Marino (7.37), Joe Montana (7.52), Roger Staubach (7.67), Dan Fouts (7.68), Sonny Jurgensen (7.56), Fran Tarkenton (7.27), Y.A. Tittle (7.52), Terry Bradshaw (7.17) and Joe Namath (7.35).



Six times in the 1960s, Starr surpassed 8.2 YPA for a season. To put that into context, Peyton Manning has surpassed 8.2 YPA just twice in his brilliant 10-year career.



And, if you want drama, don't forget that Starr scored the winning TD in the Ice Bowl, probably the most famous game in NFL history. Sure, Montana led his team 92 yards for the game-winning score in Super Bowl XXIII. But he did it on a 68-degree night in Miami. Turn down the thermostat by 86 degrees (it was 18-below in the fourth quarter of the Ice Bowl) and you begin to approximate the conditions under which the greatest quarterback in NFL history operated during his greatest moment in the sport's greatest game.



And Starr was brilliant on that drive, in the decisive moments of the sport's most famous game: he completed 5 of 5 passes in ball-busting cold, and then called a run play for the winning score. But instead of handing it off, he decided in his mind, without telling his teammates, that he was going to punch it in himself. It was only fitting: the game's greatest signal-caller taking matters into his own hands in the sport's signature moment.



To cap his career achievements, Starr earned MVP honors in the first two Super Bowls after shredding the best the AFL could throw his way for 452 yards on 47 passing attempts (9.6 YPA). Among those victims were the 1967 Raiders, perhaps the AFL's greatest single team. He posted a combined 106.0 passer rating in those two games. If you think it was no small feat to beat up on "upstart" AFL teams, just look at how NFL quarterbacks fared in Super Bowls III and IV. (Here's a hint: they were embarrassed.)



When it comes to a combination of leadership, victories, big-game performances and statistical supremacy nobody – NOBODY – put together a more total package than Bart Starr, the greatest quarterback in NFL history.

Suck it tank.

[pbmax]

Yes and no. Again, hard to compare then and now. The League was much smaller, fewer teams, smaller rosters (40) and a lot fewer players. but the HOF has always selected their 4-7 players. The HOF'ers from the '60s were concentrated on a lot fewer teams. Yes, the Packers had a lot of them, but teams like the Bears, Lions, Cots and even Vikings of the '60s also had a lot of HOF'ers, more than most of today's teams will have. The Packers of the '60s were playing a lot of teams with a bunch of future HOF'ers. I'm not sure the same can be said for many of the teams Favre played against.

You know, that is a good argument for increasing the number of inductees, if that hasn't already happened.

[smuggler]

Best thing about that Cold Hard FB Facts list is this: No Elway. I hate when people put Elway on a pedestal. I know he was a good player, and better than his numbers, but other QBs had to deal with shit, too.

[Iron Mike]

The 60's Packers were loaded, it is not like Starr carried the team on his shoulders for a decade. He had a hell of a lot of Hall of Famers on that team.

The Packers had Favre, and White. I simply can't think of another Hall of Famer during that time that played for the Packers. The next closest is Leroy Butler, and maybe Darren Sharper.

Mike Prior.

[smuggler]

LeRoy Butler approached the borderline, to be fair.

[Deputy Nutz]

Mike Prior.

I always forgret about Mike Prior. He was demon on special teams, drastically changed games during the 1996 season.