Packers Still Too Soft

[Fritz]

I think some of you guys are missing the point about what makes the Packers a soft team.

It's philosophy that leads them to acquire certain types of players on offense; and God knows what the hell they're trying to accomplish on defense, but it sure aint standing toe-to-toe with the bullies on the block.

The Packers readily admit this - they want offensive linemen that are mobile and versatile. None of our offensive linemen are good drive blockers - not one. McCarthy loves zone blocking and spreading the field; how much of our running game comes out of passing formations where all the offensive linemen are doing is inviting the DL upfieild and sealing him? McCarthy rarely calls power plays.

On defense we're soft to begin with b/c we only have one 2-gap DL and that is Pickett. Raji is not a good 2-gap player. Everybody knew that when he came out - he is actually more athletic in his lower body than he is stout, and he should be used accordingly - Capers completely misuses Raji, not to mention overuses him.

Beyond that, Capers makes us small by going to his ballyhooed 2-whatever gimmicks. It isn't that he's going to that alignment on 3rd and 13, he's going to it on 2nd and 6 - pisses me off to no end!! I offer up that example from the Seattle game - no excuse for that kind of stupidity.

We desperately need another 2-gap DL - I'm hoping for Hankins or Brandon Williams; and we need another DE. Not holding my breath on either.

Funny. I get irritated with your constant negativity, yet I agree with some of your ideas, particularly when it comes the the players you'd like to see TT take. In this case, Hankins of OSU - if that guy is the big-as-a-house and can hold his gap and get some push, then I'd be highly interested in seeing him taken.

[3irty1]

I think some of you guys are missing the point about what makes the Packers a soft team.

It's philosophy that leads them to acquire certain types of players on offense; and God knows what the hell they're trying to accomplish on defense, but it sure aint standing toe-to-toe with the bullies on the block.

The Packers readily admit this - they want offensive linemen that are mobile and versatile. None of our offensive linemen are good drive blockers - not one. McCarthy loves zone blocking and spreading the field; how much of our running game comes out of passing formations where all the offensive linemen are doing is inviting the DL upfieild and sealing him? McCarthy rarely calls power plays.

On defense we're soft to begin with b/c we only have one 2-gap DL and that is Pickett. Raji is not a good 2-gap player. Everybody knew that when he came out - he is actually more athletic in his lower body than he is stout, and he should be used accordingly - Capers completely misuses Raji, not to mention overuses him.

Beyond that, Capers makes us small by going to his ballyhooed 2-whatever gimmicks. It isn't that he's going to that alignment on 3rd and 13, he's going to it on 2nd and 6 - pisses me off to no end!! I offer up that example from the Seattle game - no excuse for that kind of stupidity.

We desperately need another 2-gap DL - I'm hoping for Hankins or Brandon Williams; and we need another DE. Not holding my breath on either.

Excelling as a 1-gap player and a 2-gap player is not mutually exclusive. While I agree that his 1-gap burst off the line is Raji's most valuable quality as a player and it goes to waste somewhat in a 2-gap scheme, you're wrong about him being a 1-gap only player. Raji can put a guy and roller sakes and drive him backwards, he plays with size, strength, and leverage to win that way as well and does so like a solid NT.

You are sensationalizing the need for 2-gap lineman. Picket is our best one but he's not our only one. Wilson has been very successful as well as exclusively a 2-gap player. I don't blame you for counting out Jolly at this point but he's another 2-gap star. That leaves just Neal and Daniels who are 3rd down players but Neal could easily be more and will have his role expanded soon.

Do you not see the fallacy in your narrative? "The scheme is lousy, the players are lousy, the lousy players are miscast for the lousy scheme." Its more sensationalizing. That's too many variables, too many moving parts to be believable. I think what's really going on here is that you don't understand the scheme and that is the foundation for your claims about the personnel. That's my honest theory anyways.

Typically high value picks are guys who exude the first step necessary to be successful in a 1-gap scheme since this is the more rare and more valuable NFL trait. If you are content to get a player limited to the role of 2-gap specialist then I'd prefer to do it in the mid or later rounds. I remember you said something once about Jesse Williams legs looking like toothpicks sticking in a potato Do you not see the same exact thing for Brandon Williams? I sure do.

[pbmax]

One gap versus two gap does not make a team soft. I understand what you are getting at, the ability to withstand a double team and an assault on the ground, but the Giants make their living one gapping and while you can run on them, no one thinks of that defense as soft. Probably because in NFL writer lexicon the Giants defense == sacks and pressure.

The problem with saying scheme and assignments make for acquiring softer players is two fold.

First, Raji is the exception. He is a player probably talented enough to do both but he is on the team because they had a rare top ten pick. That was too much talent to pass up and the pick wasn't scheme related.

Second, perhaps with the exception of Jarius Wynn the other lineman drafted before last year were specifically for a 3-4 that at least occasionally 2 gaps. Neal, Wilson and Guy. Neal's pro career makes him look like a pass rush specialist, but he was an interior lineman with Purdue and has handled double teams before (no idea if he 2 gapped in college). He might not pan out to be a 3 down player, but he wasn't drafted to be a pass rush specialist with his size and experience. Even Wynn was not just a pass rusher by body type, he was 6-3 and 275 during the draft season. A 280 DE in a 3-4 is very typical, but the Packers tend to play heavier players there.

Things got cock-eyed in 2012 with a draft specifically meant to defend against the pass defense. Worthy was taken over the guy from Penn State because of his explosiveness. But he is too large and strong to be considered only a one gap guy. Daniels, who give great effort, is probably the definition of a smaller guy making do in a poor scheme fit, though he is essentially playing a 3 tech DT in their pass rush sub package.

I agree Raji is often the odd fit here. I think he plays like he prefers to one gap and penetrate. As for 2 gap, he is too talented and big not to be able to do it, but I think he gets loose with technique and assignment. See either of the first two Vikings' games or the 49ers second game. And while I am coming closer to the idea that he is not a fit for this defense, he keeps showing us glimpses of buckling down and staying stout when needed. See for instance, the Giants playoff game in 2011 and the Vikings playoff game in 2012. My concern with Worthy is essentially the same, that he will vacillate between staying within the scheme and free lancing.

Raji held the nose down during a Super Bowl run. He can do it. Whether he chooses to, or the coaches can make him, is the $9,000,000 per year question.

Put aside fit for a minute and think about the contracts. 5 FAs here, likely that three return. They could use a NT because its likely one of Raji and Pickett leave after this year. Neither Pickett nor Raji are great fits for DE in this defense, so a DE would be good too. But if Neal stays healthy, that position might already be filled. And who knows with Jolly.

[rbaloha1]

Throwing around terminology does not solve the issue of the defensive line lining up against physical lines that run modern offenses.

2-gap, 1-gap is meaningless if you are indecisive and get crushed at the line of scrimmage. Raji's reputation of taking plays off still exists. Also fails to hold up against double teams on a consistent basis.

The packers undersized d-linemen present a problem in traditional passing situations since teams can run spread plays and crush these guys to get first downs.

Blitzing can only mask deficiencies for so long.

An overhaul is required not an avalanche of words. At least MM is taking action and not listening to Caper's b.s.

Capers is being exposed and needs to fix the problems from the first niners game.

[pbmax]

The packers undersized d-linemen present a problem in traditional passing situations since teams can run spread plays and crush these guys to get first downs.

Can you point to a team without "undersized" pass rushers on the field for pass situations? Like 260 pound Aldon Smith of the 49ers? Or 255 lb Ahmad Brooks? 270 lb Justin Smith?

The Packers roll out 260 lb Matthews, 270 lb Nick Perry, 330 lb Raji and 295 lb Mike Neal?

[rbaloha1]

Can you point to a team without "undersized" pass rushers on the field for pass situations? Like 260 pound Aldon Smith of the 49ers? Or 255 lb Ahmad Brooks? 270 lb Justin Smith?

The Packers roll out 260 lb Matthews, 270 lb Nick Perry, 330 lb Raji and 295 lb Mike Neal?

Those guys can play the run -- neal and daniels can not.

matthews also get rolled on power running plays.

hiding behind your 1-gap 2-gap stuff is meaningless when guys are getting pounded.

[rbaloha1]

btw when are you going to send mcginn your self proclaimed brilliant "analysis" challenging his softness thesis for feedback?

[pbmax]

Those guys can play the run -- neal and daniels can not.

matthews also get rolled on power running plays.

hiding behind your 1-gap 2-gap stuff is meaningless when guys are getting pounded.

rb, instead of simply throwing things up at the wall why not be more specific? wist is concerned about 1 gappers versus 2 gappers. Not 3irty1 or I.

So does being soft actually mean can't play the run? Because then we might be getting somewhere useful. But the problem isn't with Matthews, Perry or Neal in my opinion. Daniels played a lot only after there were injuries. Hard to fault the team for softsmall based on the pass rushing 6th lineman.

[pbmax]

btw when are you going to send mcginn your self proclaimed brilliant "analysis" challenging his softness thesis for feedback?

As soon as you give me a reason to believe his small claim is defensible.

[rbaloha1]

As soon as you give me a reason to believe his small claim is defensible.

you called him out on not being ranked #27.

quit being a coward.

[rbaloha1]

rb, instead of simply throwing things up at the wall why not be more specific? wist is concerned about 1 gappers versus 2 gappers. Not 3irty1 or I.

So does being soft actually mean can't play the run? Because then we might be getting somewhere useful. But the problem isn't with Matthews, Perry or Neal in my opinion. Daniels played a lot only after there were injuries. Hard to fault the team for softsmall based on the pass rushing 6th lineman.

watch tape and do not reply on wikipedia

[pbmax]

you called him out on not being ranked #27.

quit being a coward.

Rich coming from someone who wants a writer to come save his argument. Why don't you post your own work?

If you watch so much tape, post some clips. Gather some data. Do something other than complain about everyone else.

[wist43]

Excelling as a 1-gap player and a 2-gap player is not mutually exclusive. While I agree that his 1-gap burst off the line is Raji's most valuable quality as a player and it goes to waste somewhat in a 2-gap scheme, you're wrong about him being a 1-gap only player. Raji can put a guy and roller sakes and drive him backwards, he plays with size, strength, and leverage to win that way as well and does so like a solid NT.

You are sensationalizing the need for 2-gap lineman. Picket is our best one but he's not our only one. Wilson has been very successful as well as exclusively a 2-gap player. I don't blame you for counting out Jolly at this point but he's another 2-gap star. That leaves just Neal and Daniels who are 3rd down players but Neal could easily be more and will have his role expanded soon.

We need another guy who can 2-gap for the very reason that asking Raji to do that wears him down, he doesn't do it particularly well, and the constant pounding wears him down and negates his greatest strength - his explosiveness and ability to penetrate.

If I were deliberately looking for a way to neutralize Raji, I would play him exactly as Capers does.

As for Jolly, I was the his biggest cheerleader on here when he was playing. I think he's a hell of a player - but I'm not counting on him. We'll see. I hope he makes it back... he's a good kid and a good player.

Do you not see the fallacy in your narrative? "The scheme is lousy, the players are lousy, the lousy players are miscast for the lousy scheme." Its more sensationalizing. That's too many variables, too many moving parts to be believable. I think what's really going on here is that you don't understand the scheme and that is the foundation for your claims about the personnel. That's my honest theory anyways.

I haven't said the players are lousy - they're simply miscast for a traditional 3-4 b/c of what they do well, and what they don't do well; which is why I've argued that Capers should use more 4 man lines. Instead of adjusting the personnel to get more size up front, Capers goes the other way and adjusts us to be smaller - that don't cut it on 2nd and 6.

As you pointed out, Neal is looking like a different player than what we thought we were drafting - so he's not really a fit to slug it out on run downs; Worthy is a serious medical case, but he dropped a bunch of weight and went from being a potential anchor on the line, to looking like he didn't have enough sand in the bucket; Daniels was drafted as a role player; and, CJ Wilson is a below average 3-4 DE.

The 49er's have Justin Smith, we have CJ Wilson.

Add all that up - is it a surprise we have major problems in our front seven?? and that those problems are manifested on the field??

Typically high value picks are guys who exude the first step necessary to be successful in a 1-gap scheme since this is the more rare and more valuable NFL trait. If you are content to get a player limited to the role of 2-gap specialist then I'd prefer to do it in the mid or later rounds. I remember you said something once about Jesse Williams legs looking like toothpicks sticking in a potato Do you not see the same exact thing for Brandon Williams? I sure do.

I think you need glasses 3irty1... Jesse Williams is a potato with tooth picks for legs. Brandon Williams is much thicker in his legs and ankles. Jesse Williams is a good player, but for a guy carrying that much weight in his upper body, he has terribly thin legs - I'm not the only one who sees it.

[wist43]

Rich coming from someone who wants a writer to come save his argument. Why don't you post your own work?

If you watch so much tape, post some clips. Gather some data. Do something other than complain about everyone else.

[pbmax]

video: Taxi Driver Travis Bickell Has an Inquiry

Was talking to rb, but do have question for you:

Do you think Raji wears down and then gets moved around in the run game, especially with double teams?

Because my memory tells me I have seen this early in the season and early in games. But then there are times where he doesn't get moved at all. I think its less getting worn down, which does happen of course same as all players, and more technique, attitude/preference for charging up the field.

Now its possible it has to do with the talent he is facing. He is clearly not as immovable as Pickett. But I suspect there is more going on here than just stamina.