Bulaga hurt?

[wist43]

Problem is, what he said is not what I was trying to argue against. I am responding to concern that McCarthy won't run.

I am not arguing with wist or you that 2012 was a good running game.

I think MM would run more if it were effective - the problem with McCarthy is he is committed to 3 running plays, student body left, right, middle. The only variation on those 3 plays is formation.

Defenses don't have to respect our running game at all - afterall, they are only tasked with stopping 3 plays. Combine that with a weak run blocking OL, no run blocking TE's or FB's, and pedestrian RB's... from the defenses perspective - what's to worry about??

Also, you cannot subtract carries from the Packers and the do the same for one other team and claim its meaningful.

Do it for all teams, minus the option teams, if you want. As I've pointed out, you can't take the option team QB atts out b/c that is a staple of their offense. I wouldn't want my team to be doing what Wash and SF are doing - they're going to get their QB's killed eventually. I don't see it as a viable, long term approach. In the short term, they're tearing the league up.

I'm not that caught up trying to use statistics to prove something that is obvious.

It is obvious, or should be obvious, that the Green Bay Packers simply cannot run the football effectively from base formations with their principle RB's - and that should be the point.

[pbmax]

It is obvious, or should be obvious, that the Green Bay Packers simply cannot run the football effectively from base formations with their principle RB's - and that should be the point.

On this, for 2012 at least, we agree. I think it will be much better in 2013. We'll see.

[Fritz]

With all the love that TT and MM have for small, soft players and fancy-pants passing schemes, I don't understand why they've drafted and plan to play Eddie Lacy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The worst thing I've heard about Lacy is that some sportwriter said he looks like Ron Dayne. Sent a shiver down my spine. Dayne wasn't a terrible pro, had a long career, but you certainly hope for more. They both were big, overpowering backs in college who also have quick feet.

[pbmax]

The worst thing I've heard about Lacy is that some sportwriter said he looks like Ron Dayne. Sent a shiver down my spine. Dayne wasn't a terrible pro, had a long career, but you certainly hope for more. They both were big, overpowering backs in college who also have quick feet.

Lacy had four runs in the scrimmage that looked better than most of Dayne's career. He is not as heavy (doubt Dayne's listed weight was ever accurate) and he responds to contact better. Will he be a world beater? Don't know, but I think he will eclipse Ron.

[Guiness]

I'm reading that there is hope Bulaga could come back during the season.

I'm curious about this injury. Obviously not a full tear - first there is hope he can play through it, now that he comes back quickly. These are not the discussions you generally hear when it comes to ACL injuries.

[run pMc]

I'm with you pbmax. I think the running game in 2012 was pretty awful and was cause for a lot of struggles. I also think Lacy > Dayne for the reasons you site (Dayne looked heavier, didn't handle contact as well). I also think Dayne was less decisive and used to huge holes in the line that stayed open longer...but that's another thread topic.

Some offenses featured the QB as part of its rushing attack (Cam Newton, RGIII, Kaepernick), so I disagree that removing their stats "gives a better indicator of what kind of shape a teams actual running game is in". I'd argue removing them give an indication of how reliant a team is on the QB for rushing yards, and how effective their RBs are.

Last year I think he gave up a little early sometimes, and not running at all for most of the 2nd half vs SF was wrong IMO. Honestly, there were times last year where the RBs were so bad that I can hardly blame M3 for giving up and just let Rodgers go to work -- if you listed the top 5 skill players on offense last year, none would have been a RB.

Benson - retread, still on the street
Grant - retread, still on the street
Starks - couldn't stay healthy
Green - rushed back from ACL injury
Harris - car salesman

Not exactly a murderer's row.

I think the RB talent is much better this year with Lacy, Franklin, a resurgant Starks and a healthier Green...not to mention Harris. M3 will trust the running game more if he's actually got talented players to work with. Lacy has people excited because he's clearly shown some talent already.

One other thing we have to accept about M3 -- he's not a brilliant in-game strategist. He is very good at teaching and developing players, which works well with TT's philosophy for building a team. Not a bad trade-off if it means being a respected perennial playoff team.

[wist43]

With all the love that TT and MM have for small, soft players and fancy-pants passing schemes, I don't understand why they've drafted and plan to play Eddie Lacy.

Starks is a big back too... and Green isn't a small back.

Lacy is in for a rude awakening though... at Alabama he ran behind an OL that was better, man-for-man and in terms of execution and production, than the mess he is going to be running behind now.

It is undeniable that the Packers prefer finesse players, even if the Ht/Wt ratios say they're comparable to league averages. You can't tell what type of player a guy is simply based on his Ht/Wt ratio. Who knows, maybe Bacteria can actually run block?? I doubt it, but if he understands leverage, has good feet and hands?? Maybe he can actually do the job - but if he can, he would be the exception to the Packers rule - which is to have foot shuffling, wall-off, pass protectors who couldn't drive block a cornerback off the LOS.

Marshmellow may be short for an OT, but he's certainly got the weight - why then is he the worst run blocking OT in the league?? If anything, being short and squat, by Ht/Wt definition, he should be an excellent drive blocker - yet, he is soft, soft, soft, weak, weak, weak.

None of this is going to change anytime soon. It is the Packers philosophy that dictates that they acquire these types of players.

[wist43]

You guys keep pointing to the RB's...

Yeah, that's not a murderer's row, but how many times did Benson take a handoff and was hit before he could look up?? Beyond that, our blocking philosophy isn't even designed to "open holes", it is simplistic front side is there, or look for the cut back... if the defense defends the backside(which is easy to do), our RB's are going exactly nowhere.

It would be nice to have better talent at RB, but what does it matter when your OL sucks, and your philosophy keeps you stuck in that condition??

[Fritz]

Starks is a big back too... and Green isn't a small back.

Lacy is in for a rude awakening though... at Alabama he ran behind an OL that was better, man-for-man and in terms of execution and production, than the mess he is going to be running behind now.

It is undeniable that the Packers prefer finesse players, even if the Ht/Wt ratios say they're comparable to league averages. You can't tell what type of player a guy is simply based on his Ht/Wt ratio. Who knows, maybe Bacteria can actually run block?? I doubt it, but if he understands leverage, has good feet and hands?? Maybe he can actually do the job - but if he can, he would be the exception to the Packers rule - which is to have foot shuffling, wall-off, pass protectors who couldn't drive block a cornerback off the LOS.

Marshmellow may be short for an OT, but he's certainly got the weight - why then is he the worst run blocking OT in the league?? If anything, being short and squat, by Ht/Wt definition, he should be an excellent drive blocker - yet, he is soft, soft, soft, weak, weak, weak.

None of this is going to change anytime soon. It is the Packers philosophy that dictates that they acquire these types of players.

The Packer War Room, According to Wist:

Eliot Wolf: Well, we're down to these two offensive linemen. Both have similar measurables. Height, weight, combine numbers.

Mike McCarthy: Dammit, need a guy who can pass block. What's the difference between them?

Wolf: Well, the one guy likes Chuck Norris movies, eats raw hamburger, carries a handgun. Belches and farts a lot. Got run over by a truck once, got right back up. Said it wasn't so bad.

Ted Thompson: What about the other guy?

Wolf: He enjoys long walks in the woods, art show openings, gourmet food. He sings in his church choir, pink's his favorite color.

Thompson and McCarthy: We'll take that guy!

[pbmax]

I'm reading that there is hope Bulaga could come back during the season.

I'm curious about this injury. Obviously not a full tear - first there is hope he can play through it, now that he comes back quickly. These are not the discussions you generally hear when it comes to ACL injuries.

I think that is wishful thinking about either a partial tear, which was not announced or the return in same season of Rod Woodson to play in the playoffs.

Not going to risk it with a young player.

[wist43]

The Packer War Room, According to Wist:

Eliot Wolf: Well, we're down to these two offensive linemen. Both have similar measurables. Height, weight, combine numbers.

Mike McCarthy: Dammit, need a guy who can pass block. What's the difference between them?

Wolf: Well, the one guy likes Chuck Norris movies, eats raw hamburger, carries a handgun. Belches and farts a lot. Got run over by a truck once, got right back up. Said it wasn't so bad.

Ted Thompson: What about the other guy?

Wolf: He enjoys long walks in the woods, art show openings, gourmet food. He sings in his church choir, pink's his favorite color.

Thompson and McCarthy: We'll take that guy!

lol... yeah, that's pretty close I'd imagine

[run pMc]

You guys keep pointing to the RB's...

Yeah, that's not a murderer's row, but how many times did Benson take a handoff and was hit before he could look up?? Beyond that, our blocking philosophy isn't even designed to "open holes", it is simplistic front side is there, or look for the cut back... if the defense defends the backside(which is easy to do), our RB's are going exactly nowhere.

It would be nice to have better talent at RB, but what does it matter when your OL sucks, and your philosophy keeps you stuck in that condition??

We can go back and forth about whether a RB makes the OL or OL makes the RB.

Regardless, I think you raise a good point. The OL certainly shares blame for some of the run game's failings.

I would, however, argue that the OL depth is what hurt them. Sherrod hasn't been healthy and has yet to show he can be the starting LT (or RT). Bulaga was thought to be a potential Pro Bowl RT so they kept him there...meanwhile Newhouse ends up at LT. Lang was stuck between Newhouse and Saturday and could only help one of them at a time...then he hurt his elbow and floundered at RT when Bulaga got hurt. McGinn was right about one thing: Barclay, not Lang, should have been at RT. Barclay saved their bacon last year...the OL was at least 2 spots short of decent backups, and he was able to step in.

It's no surprise TT drafted Bakh and Tretter. Last year there were a lot of young guys (Datko, Barclay, EDS) that should be better. Newhouse claims he's working on improving his run blocking...and while he has good feet, he's not the LT anymore. Saturday is gone.
I expect improvements this year from the OL and will be disappointed if there isn't. The depth is better at OL and RB.

[Guiness]

We can go back and forth about whether a RB makes the OL or OL makes the RB.

Regardless, I think you raise a good point. The OL certainly shares blame for some of the run game's failings.

I would, however, argue that the OL depth is what hurt them. Sherrod hasn't been healthy and has yet to show he can be the starting LT (or RT).

Sherrod at LT or RT? That's a bill of goods no one is buying. I'd be elated if he was our Long Snapper coming out of camp.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I also think Lacy > Dayne for the reasons you site (Dayne looked heavier...

Sorry, couldn't resist a trip down recent memory lane.

I don't have any reason to believe that Lacy won't surprass Dayne, but the sportswriter who made the comparison also covered Dayne in college, maybe it was Oates, I forget. The two backs have similar running styles.