Me and my pal Wist (or, worst Training Camp EVER!!)

[RashanGary]

As I pointed out in the other post...

The DL is a much stronger group than the LB's - we should be taking advantage of that.

Raji, Daniels, D. Jones, Neal - and throw Perry in there as a tweener, are all pass rushers - Jolly, Wilson, and Pickett are all nice gap control, run defenders.

At LB we have 1 player - Matthews; and a bunch of junk (Perry being a tweener you could include in either catagory).

Which set of personnel do you want on the field wreaking havoc at the LOS?? Forget coverage at the outset - which personnel group do you want on the field?? You're good, to very good defensive linemen, or your shitty linebackers??

I think the answer, and the solution are obvious and simple.

Wist, I think you're right. We have more DL this year, and some of them are athletic and can move in space (Jones/Neal.) It will be interesting to see if Capers adapts to his new group or if his new group is as good as early indications suggest.

[pbmax]

I actually am looking forward to Mr. Jones in coverage. I think he is a better athlete than almost any other backer except Matthews (I hope Justin, Patler or someone else can find combine numbers to back me up). So dime LB I am less worried about than previous years.

Getting pass rush out of four players would make the 2-4 or any alignment much more stout against the pass and be less susceptible to a big run breaking through the first wave. I think that is what Perry and Neal must provide this year (maybe Jones). I also continue to hold out hope that Raji gets some breaks with Jones and probably Jolly on board.

As for talent comparisons you can't list Perry as DL and Neal must be on both lists. You may not think they should be OLBs but they will be playing OLB. So the talent comparison looks like this:

Raji, Pickett, Wilson, Jones, Daniels, Jolly/Boyd/Miller and Neal

vs.

Matthews, Perry, Jones, Hawk, Neal

There is still more pass rush in those LBs. Jones might change that. Harvey's numbers are correct.

My main concern remains execution. Collins' mastery of the D must be replaced and everyone must stop trying to get their Woodson on and play solid. And for Pete's sake, play a decent zone coverage once in a while.

[run pMc]

I actually am looking forward to Mr. Jones in coverage. I think he is a better athlete than almost any other backer except Matthews (I hope Justin, Patler or someone else can find combine numbers to back me up). So dime LB I am less worried about than previous years.

Combine stats for some of the OLB's and ILB's here:

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?25591-Sam-Barrington&highlight=sam+barrington

Edit: If you're too lazy to dig thru the postings, Brad Jones compares favorably to Clay and Hawk (who had a crazy combine). Jones' numbers look better than Manning or Barrington and way better than pre-hamstrung Bishop.

[pbmax]

Mr. Jones has a heck of a top gear. He is the Jordy Nelson of ILBs.

[wist43]

I'm really sorry you had to deal with that. Fuck, man. My brother is a sociopath, and yes, if helping the world is a good reason to kill somebody, he should be killed.

You're an awesome guy, wist. Knowing you had to deal with that makes me like you that much more. Having to grow up with a sociopath, they love to tell you your emotions aren't real, and people don't really feel this or that. For me, learning to feel what I feel, believe it, and trust other people feel that way too has been really hard, but really awesome.

Sometimes, I share things other people don't. But know what, when I was told every day you don't feel this or that, the freedom to just say how I feel and not feel ashamed or weak for it makes me a hell of a lot stronger, and a hell of a better guy to be around for everyone in my life.

You need to just hang tough... You're younger than I am - you grow into understanding. Everyone copes differently - I just shut out the bad shit, and kept marching forward... he threw me out when I was 16 and I lived in the back of my car for about a month and half before I saved enough money to rent a room in a run-down mobile home.

My 2 sisters weren't nearly as tough as I am, and struggled with "daddy issues" - my one sister struggled quite a bit, but eventually came out okay; unfortunately she died of cancer very young. My other sister couldn't cope at all and went insane. She needs to be committed - needed to be committed years ago actually, but my mother and her husband are both enablers and they keep her going. She is a recluse who rarely comes out of her house, and when she does, she needs to be completely drunk to pull it off.

I actually saw her for the first time in 12 years just the other day - it was weird. She was drunk, and scared the hell out of my kids, lol...

It is what it is... hang in there. I wouldn't recommend killing your brother though - they lock you up for that shit, ya know??

I gave serious thought to killing my father - and half the time wish I had, the other half of the time I look at my kids and I'm glad I didn't. One thing I can tell you - if I thought there were a way I could have done it, and gotten away with it?? I definitely would have done it - some people are evil and need killing. Again, it just is what it is.

Good luck to you man.

[mraynrand]

Sure the pass rush and sacks come from the LBs mostly, but you need the linemen to collapse the pocket, create some pressure, help expose the QB to the LBs

"As for talent comparisons you can't list Perry as DL and Neal must be on both lists. You may not think they should be OLBs but they will be playing OLB. So the talent comparison looks like this:"

It seems as though Perry will line up mostly as an OLB, Neal mostly as a DL, so yes you are correct, but I don't care if they call Raji a corner or Perry a QB as long as they can carry out their assignment. As to Wist's argument: I think he is pretty clear that he believes it's all Caper's fault for putting players in bad positions, but at the same time he seems to be all over the place on whether he thinks there is any talent to work with. You have to have both of course, but my point is that it seems really premature to make a claim one way or the other since so many guys are raw or, because of injuries or changing positions/roles, haven't played much to know what they have to offer. One thing I like about blaming Capers for everything, is it simplifies my life: I had a bad lunch and I blamed Capers. Now I my mind is clear for an afternoon of work.

[wist43]

Combine stats for some of the OLB's and ILB's here:

http://packerrats.com/showthread.php?25591-Sam-Barrington&highlight=sam+barrington

Edit: If you're too lazy to dig thru the postings, Brad Jones compares favorably to Clay and Hawk (who had a crazy combine). Jones' numbers look better than Manning or Barrington and way better than pre-hamstrung Bishop.

Workout numbers will get you drafted, and get you a shot... but at some point you have to prove you can play.

I liked B. Jones coming out, even though he was only a 7th round pick, I wanted to give him every opportunity - that's the way it works. You mine for gold in the lower round and try to find guys you can develop.

B. Jones is an okay player - if he were the weak link in our LB'ing corp, I'd be okay with that; but he's not the weak link, he's the baseline. Perry is limited at OLB, even if he proves to be a good pass rusher; and Hawk is the poster child for JAG - so now you're running a 3-4 defense, and 3 of your 4 LB's are either pedestrian or somewhat of a poor fit.

Unless you make adjustments to how you put a gameplan on the field - you're going to struggle a lot with guys like that - b/c, believe it or not, opposing OC's are looking for your weaknesses and trying to exploit them.

[wist43]

Sure the pass rush and sacks come from the LBs mostly, but you need the linemen to collapse the pocket, create some pressure, help expose the QB to the LBs

"As for talent comparisons you can't list Perry as DL and Neal must be on both lists. You may not think they should be OLBs but they will be playing OLB. So the talent comparison looks like this:"

It seems as though Perry will line up mostly as an OLB, Neal mostly as a DL, so yes you are correct, but I don't care if they call Raji a corner or Perry a QB as long as they can carry out their assignment. As to Wist's argument: I think he is pretty clear that he believes it's all Caper's fault for putting players in bad positions, but at the same time he seems to be all over the place on whether he thinks there is any talent to work with. You have to have both of course, but my point is that it seems really premature to make a claim one way or the other since so many guys are raw or, because of injuries or changing positions/roles, haven't played much to know what they have to offer. One thing I like about blaming Capers for everything, is it simplifies my life: I had a bad lunch and I blamed Capers. Now I my mind is clear for an afternoon of work.

Dude, I am not "all over the place" on whether I think there is talent to work with - I like the talent, I just see most of them as being a poor fit for a traditional 3-4.

It's not like I'm the only one that sees that.

[mraynrand]

Dude, I am not "all over the place" on whether I think there is talent to work with - I like the talent, I just see most of them as being a poor fit for a traditional 3-4.

It's not like I'm the only one that sees that.

OK.

[pbmax]

It seems as though Perry will line up mostly as an OLB, Neal mostly as a DL, so yes you are correct, but I don't care if they call Raji a corner or Perry a QB as long as they can carry out their assignment. As to Wist's argument: I think he is pretty clear that he believes it's all Caper's fault for putting players in bad positions, but at the same time he seems to be all over the place on whether he thinks there is any talent to work with. You have to have both of course, but my point is that it seems really premature to make a claim one way or the other since so many guys are raw or, because of injuries or changing positions/roles, haven't played much to know what they have to offer. One thing I like about blaming Capers for everything, is it simplifies my life: I had a bad lunch and I blamed Capers. Now I my mind is clear for an afternoon of work.

I wonder about Neal's role. Moving him to OLB and having him drop weight weren't necessary to play him at DT in nickel. Maybe just to preserve him? Seems like there would be something more there.

But of Perry, Neal and Jones, if you shake loose a pass rusher plus Matthews, we won't be discussing if the backend has been solved since there will be little film to go over it.

[mraynrand]

Wist, anyone, do the Packers really need to run a traditional 3-4 to be successful? If they have the personnel for something else, can't that something else work? What alignment with current personnel would you use for run downs and passing downs or to cover either?

[swede]

For as porous as our defense can be between the twenties, it sure gets tough near the goal line.

Didn't we have one of the worst defenses in terms of yardage and an above average defense in terms of scoring in the last few years?

Edit: See the stats PB found below.

[swede]

What a bunch of pussies.

Fuckin' A.

I'm about ready to buy a gross of Vagisil for you ladies ( Not Pugs and MJ, though, they actually have a pair....... Each.)

Thanks!

I could understand the hand wringing if we were losing like this in the regular season and our starters were in there all game long. Most of the time I've liked what I've seen when the 1's are in there this summer. Bak his gonna need assistance against the likes of the 49ers but I'd wager Bulaga would too.

Way to man up. Pugger!

[Fritz]

Dude, I am not "all over the place" on whether I think there is talent to work with - I like the talent, I just see most of them as being a poor fit for a traditional 3-4.

It's not like I'm the only one that sees that.

The problem may be an organizational issue of philosophy. To respond to the flatlining of the salary cap, Thompson has decided that the organization can only afford the biggie contracts to a couple or few top-notch players. Those tend to be players who are talented and learn pretty quickly.

Feeling the pressure of the future always upon him (Ted is the guy who pays off his mortgage five years early but must wear raggedy clothes and eat sandwiches at home to do so), Thompson is highly reluctant to tie up too much future sal cap. Thus the team has this draft-and-develop strategy that often puts underprepared players in positions of some importance. The catch-on-quick guys like Hayward do fine, but most players take more time and coaching to really develop.

And here might be the heart of the problem: the players that take longest to learn and adjust would be players you're asking to learn a new position. Who would that be? Ah, the two weakest spots on the team - linebacker and offensive line (specifically inside positions).

Converting college defensive ends into outside linebackers, and outside linebackers into inside linebackers, takes time. The problem is that in the Packer's philosophy, there's no time to learn. Rookies are expected to contribute, though the Packers try or pretend to be realistic by acknowledging the expectation that the learning will be fast. That's why MM always talks about the jump from first to second year.

Converting college offensive tackles to guards and centers also takes time. Hell, it takes time for a tackle in college to learn to be a tackle in the NFL. This argument is weak when you look at the number of years Sitton, EDS, and Lang now have, but you could also argue there is really no depth inside, at all. The tackle situation I think has more to do with losing your top two drafted tackles from the last three drafts.

So this could be a problem. And maybe it could be resolved by switching to a 4-3 defense, and by drafting college guards to play guard. This would allow players to learn more quickly since there would be less to learn for a college defensive end to learn about playing pro defensive end than there would be for him to learn about being a linebacker.

So maybe it's not exactly Capers's fault, completely. It could be that Ted's response to the flatlined sal cap is causing MM and company to have to play too many young players too soon.

[pbmax]

For as porous as our defense can be between the twenties, it sure gets tough near the goal line.

Didn't we have one of the worst defenses in terms of yardage and an above average defense in terms of scoring in the last few years?

Packers D Ranks

Year . . . Yards . . .Points
2012 . . 11th . . . 11th
2011 . . 32nd . . . 19th
2010 . . 5th . . . . 2nd
2009 . . 2nd . . . . 7th