Me and my pal Wist (or, worst Training Camp EVER!!)

[denverYooper]

Put that foam finger away now, wist.

[Pugger]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good stuff huh??

Yeah, if you think the 2013 defense will be identical to the 2012 D.

[Upnorth]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good stuff huh??

In the third one I believe Walden is out of position instead doulbling up the outside man who was covered by Shields (i think). SO walden was out of position again. IN the first one, wow our oline got beat in the middle (Saterday) and to the right a lot (Buluga).
I think without Walden we have upgraded in the middle, and hopefully Capers will adjust for run after over reacting to pass last year. Regarding the Oline, I dont think we are better, and will probably be worse.

[denverYooper]

Yeah, if you think the 2013 defense will be identical to the 2012 D.

Wist has never been very good at thinking outside of the box.

[Bossman641]

1:17 mark?? Hmmm - I guess we don't need to cover the middle of the field, huh?? lol

You guys are okay with this kind of stuff... I understand that. I'm not okay with it.

Isn't that Woodson vacating the middle at the 1:17 mark? Sure looks like zone coverage and he follows Davis out of his area. Weren't you the one arguing earlier this offseason how he was irreplaceable and how the only reason he was let go was because he had the gall to stand up to Capers?

[wist43]

Isn't that Woodson vacating the middle at the 1:17 mark? Sure looks like zone coverage and he follows Davis out of his area. Weren't you the one arguing earlier this offseason how he was irreplaceable and how the only reason he was let go was because he had the gall to stand up to Capers?

Yeah, it was Woodson - dont know what his responsibility was... he probably didn't know what his responsibility was.

I think Capers explains what their individual responsibilities were on Tuesday film study.

I give all the players a pass to whatever extent - it's obvious when someone misses a tackle, or takes a bad angle, but the missed assignments, blown coverages, huge holes to run thru, broken pockets, on and on... it's next to impossible to evaluate the players, when the DC has them in poor pre-snap alignments combined with complex assignments that the young guys are too often busting.

No, I don't hold the players accountable - I hold Capers accountable.

If the scheme and alignments were sound - then I'd look to the next likely cause, and I'd look at the players; but the defense is so "uncoordinated", that I look at the "coordinator" first.

[pbmax]

Funny, I don't see the Seahawks highlights in there. Must not fit the narrative.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Put that foam finger away now, wist.

ya, that one is so played.

[wist43]

Wist has never been very good at thinking outside of the box.

My father was a sociopath, a sick motherfucker... should have killed him long before he died of natural causes - but one thing he was very good at was chess. Very creative, offensive minded player.

He taught me how to play at a young age, and my game developed in response to his... hence I became a "defense first" player. Strategy games are easy... where it gets more difficult is when you have to consider your opponent. You're not playing the game, you're playing your opponent.

My father would do very unsound things, and get away with it b/c he was a superior player to most of his opponents - but once I matured, he could no longer get away it. We eventually equalled out, and our last couple hundred games were probably 50/50, with a good percentage of them ending in draws.

You can get away with doing unsound things if you are superior to your opponent; but you can't assume that - can you?? or you shouldn't assume that. Capers does things that opposing OC's worth their salt are able to too easily exploit.

Love Sun Tzu - ignore those principles at your own peril - in everything you do. Sun Tzu was the very definition of "thinking outside the box".

[wist43]

Funny, I don't see the Seahawks highlights in there. Must not fit the narrative.

I don't know why you defend the mess Max - you're an excuse maker.

[mraynrand]

You can get away with doing unsound things if you are superior to your opponent;

The fact that the Packers drafted all defense last year, and drafted defense with #1 this year, lost Woodson and Collins - a sure fire HOF/Defensive player of the year (who was DONE after 2010) and a certain multi-year probowler in Collins I think pretty effectively demonstrates that NO ONE in the Packer organization thought that the Packers defense was superior to anyone. In your Chess analogy, the Packers of 2011 after Collins goes out are equal to you at age ten getting your ass kicked by your piece of shit sociopath father. Now they are starting to get better/mature.

[pbmax]

I don't know why you defend the mess Max - you're an excuse maker.

Not at all. Its an issue that has been developing since 2010 and has some roots in 2009 (pass defense) and even 2007 (pass rush without KGB and Williams, run D with KGB). I am plenty concerned about the deterioration and the farther the Packers get from 2010 without popping back into the Top 10 or 15 defensively makes me think its an institutional problem.

But we disagree on the scope and causes of the problem. Its unclear what will happen with the offense in 2013, but average defense puts the Packers in the NFC Championship Game in each of the last 3 years. That is the scope of the problem.

The cause of the problem is far more mysterious. If the Packers can handle a Seahawks offense, then the LOS isn't the tire fire everyone believes it to be. San Fran was assignment and speed. Walden and Woodson might simply not have been up to the task from a talent standpoint but there are weakpoints of any defense. And the Giants have beaten the Packers will big plays on offense.

Now I used to think the hole on D was personnel related but that has largely be rectified I believe in the last 2 drafts. What remains are assignments and game plans for the players you have.

I agree with you that Capers has picked the wrong game plan for opponents at times. San Fran playoff game was a surprise (CK read option). Giants playoff game in Lambeau was no such thing. But that happens to everyone (ask Atlanta about their gameplan versus Rodgers in the first half of the playoff game in the Super Bowl year).

The problem I have is that while you can say the offense never puts it into a higher gear for comebacks, they do make definitive adjustments and execute differently from half to half. My concern on the defensive side is that once a game goes bad, it does not seem to get better to give the O a chance.

Is this Capers fault? Ultimately yes, and should the D fail again, he will be the one sacrificed. But its more than 2-4 or 3 man pass rush. Why are there still problems with execution and with recovering from a bad start? I think the Defense suffers from odd parts in places, where talent doesn't match scheme (Raji) or the secondary, where talent does not play all coverages well. Capers? Maybe, but I tend to think its the assistants and the development of players to execute the system.

What I don't buy is that Thompson and McCarthy don't value toughness or size or line play nor do I buy that Capers has lost his fastball or is fundamentally unsound. Same way I don't buy that Bob Sanders failed simply because his defense was static.

And its not like he isn't trying. The Game Day thread for the playoff game was screaming for a spy and Capers deployed on to no effect at times in that game and he gave a pretty thorough account of the adjustments they went to in that game. But there is a mismatch between the three guys in charge that keeps putting out a defense that can come unglued.

P.S. Thompson has some culpability here, more than likely. Aside from injuries, a player like Sam Shields who is pressed into service after virtually no training needs time to develop. Its probably not a coincidence that he is only now learning to play off coverages and tackle. And they way the personnel department is setup, he had to be the cornerback on the field, there were no trained but limited vets to come in and help.

[mraynrand]

P.S. Thompson has some culpability here, more than likely. Aside from injuries, a player like Sam Shields who is pressed into service after virtually no training needs time to develop. Its probably not a coincidence that he is only now learning to play off coverages and tackle. And they way the personnel department is setup, he had to be the cornerback on the field, there were no trained but limited vets to come in and help.

good post, but here at the end is Sam Shields as an example of the problem. It's feast and famine. Guy played lights out against Chicago in the single most significant playoff game in Packer history, gets a pick six against the 49ers, but his limitations in playing zone put the defense at risk. I guess the lesson is that when you do go with youth and draft and rookie free agency, you must have that veteran balance. Woodson got old and Collins got injured. Perhaps the mistake was not addressing the loss of those two in the 2011 - 2012 offseason by bringing in a veteran - maybe some here who have the players available still in their heads can retroactively look to see who the Packers could have picked up and how it might have worked out and how it would have affected ability to sign other players, etc.

Perhaps what's going on is pretty normal for this era of the NFL we're in. The Packers won a Superbowl and are reseting the defense to win another. Hopefully that will gel before they have to reset the skill positions on offense.

[RashanGary]

My father was a sociopath, a sick motherfucker... should have killed him long before he died of natural causes - but one thing he was very good at was chess. Very creative, offensive minded player.

He taught me how to play at a young age, and my game developed in response to his... hence I became a "defense first" player. Strategy games are easy... where it gets more difficult is when you have to consider your opponent. You're not playing the game, you're playing your opponent.

My father would do very unsound things, and get away with it b/c he was a superior player to most of his opponents - but once I matured, he could no longer get away it. We eventually equalled out, and our last couple hundred games were probably 50/50, with a good percentage of them ending in draws.

You can get away with doing unsound things if you are superior to your opponent; but you can't assume that - can you?? or you shouldn't assume that. Capers does things that opposing OC's worth their salt are able to too easily exploit.

Love Sun Tzu - ignore those principles at your own peril - in everything you do. Sun Tzu was the very definition of "thinking outside the box".

I'm really sorry you had to deal with that. Fuck, man. My brother is a sociopath, and yes, if helping the world is a good reason to kill somebody, he should be killed.

You're an awesome guy, wist. Knowing you had to deal with that makes me like you that much more. Having to grow up with a sociopath, they love to tell you your emotions aren't real, and people don't really feel this or that. For me, learning to feel what I feel, believe it, and trust other people feel that way too has been really hard, but really awesome.

Sometimes, I share things other people don't. But know what, when I was told every day you don't feel this or that, the freedom to just say how I feel and not feel ashamed or weak for it makes me a hell of a lot stronger, and a hell of a better guy to be around for everyone in my life.

[RashanGary]

Wist, and I get the impression that fucker tormented you with your fears. It's almost like you NEED to be heard really badly when you see something is wrong because somebody (a sociopath father, maybe) never let the healthy worries and fears be tended to (like don't jump off a bridge because it might kill you.)

You worries on the Packers are completely legit, man. I wanna be optimistic and hope for the best, but I completely understand the things you see as weaknesses or concerns.