Wholesale Changes

[denverYooper]

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne 8m
Back from #Packers locker room. A lot of uncertainty. FA's to-be James Jones and Evan Dietrich-Smith both unsure. Will test the market.

[mraynrand]

Tyler Dunne @TyDunne 8m
Back from #Packers locker room. A lot of uncertainty. FA's to-be James Jones and Evan Dietrich-Smith both unsure. Will test the market.

Losing Jones or EDS does not bother me in the least.

[hoosier]

Yup, something is wrong there, it can't be that they are juicing, Clay get's hurt when the wind blows.

You think there is an association between PEDs and broken thumb bones?

[mraynrand]

Osteogenesis Imperfecta! (Brittle bone disease) It's probably some new variety of adult onset disease resulting from some paper mill runoff toxin in the local Green Bay waters.

[Carolina_Packer]

As a #3 corner, though. The rest of the D was so bad it is hard to tell. I don't see an elite player there. I hope I'm wrong. Do we really think he's that much better than Micah Hyde?

I think the discussion inside this point is that we as Packer fans know the MO of the club is to play young players, and see if they are worth a second contract and to become part of the core of the team and earn that spot instead of giving money to a free agent as a "quick fix". When said young player gets hurt and can't contribute, not only does that hurt his development (and anyone's real ability to rate him), but it also means you have to play a lesser player and hope that he can play well enough, although in truth he may be too inexperienced or more of a special teams player. Zoom out a bit. These are first and second year players, but the club asks a lot of them because of the way they choose to build the team. We didn't just rely on one inexperienced guy this year, we relied on a lot of them. You can't just say hurry up and get better. They get better when they get better, and they deserve as least some time to get seasoned and then I think we can fairly rate them.

[SkinBasket]

there has to be something going on. it can't just be dumb luck that we're the most injury plagued team every single season

What I was getting at is you need to separate the injuries resulting from contact (with other players or the field) from the conditioning/training type stuff like hamstrings and quads. That'll give you a much better idea whether we need changes to our training/medical staff. No matter the numbers, it's silly to blame the those folks for guys getting torn apart on the field. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes bad luck is just bad luck, no matter how tempting it is to find some tinfoil hat theory to blame it on.

[ThunderDan]

You think there is an association between PEDs and broken thumb bones?

My thoughts exactly. He tackles a QB reaching for a sack and his thumb just gets turned the wrong way or catches on a piece of Stafford's equipment and the thumb breaks. Bad luck.

[SMBASS]

The thing that concerns me most is that between Favre and Rodgers were going to have the incredible luxury or luck of having 25-30, (whatever it ends up being) straight years of elite, (by NFL standards) QB play and we might "only" end up with 2 Lombardi's to show for it. Everyone talks about it being a, "QB League" and how you can't win without great QB play, (Trent Dilfer, Rob Johnson exceptions aside) and I'm fearful that we're going to piss all those years away and not have much to show for it. Sure it's great to be competitive and be in the playoffs almost every year and I understand how hard that is to do but at some point you have to take chances and put some proven supporting players on the field along with that elite QB. We made the playoffs this year and I was happy about it and all but I had absolutely no expectations of us winning the Super Bowl. I didn't even think we really belonged in the playoffs except for the fact that our division sucked so bad.

These are just my personal feelings about it, but I don't believe in moral victories and getting into the playoffs just to go one and done year after year doesn't mean shit to me. Championships are all that I care about. If a team has to be put together to have a legitimate opportunity to win a trophy or two and then not be as competitive for a couple of years while you re-load and let younger players develop due to salary cap limitations, etc. I'm all for it. I don't even think that means you have to necessarily completely suck during those down years either.

Draft and develop is great and I agree that it should still be the basis for building your team but unless you hit on a high percentage of those draft choices and you get 4-5 decent future starters, (Starting by 3rd year.) and a couple of future studs out of each draft you just end up wasting a lot of time waiting for that, "development" to happen while your elite QB's career window continues to close. Ted has drafted a lot of D players over the past few years that just haven't panned out so far and in truth, his 2010, 2011, and 2012 drafts haven't proven to be anything to get too excited about overall. (Yes, there have been a few decent players taken over that time.) I realize that this is not a guarantee of success and that anything can happen if you're in the playoffs but I think this is just more along the lines of how I would personally approach it.

In my opinion I think it's time for Ted to go out and sign a couple of "proven" vet D players with a few good years left similar to what he did when he signed Pickett and Woodson because we've just had too many whiffs in the past 3 years or so on D players that aren't getting it done. For example, I thought Burnett had a lot of potential when he was drafted and that he would start to break out by now but I was really disappointed with his play this year. Especially since we just signed him to a fairly big contract during the past offseason. How in the hell long is it going to take us to draft someone who can compliment Matthews and actually generate a legitimate pass rush on a consistent basis? It's been several years and we still haven't found anyone close to filling that need.

Rodgers obviously has several good years left in his prime but those years can slip by quickly. As mentioned, I just think it would really suck to end up having so many years of elite QB play and only 2 trophy's to show for it. Who knows what will happen after Rodger's career. Maybe we get lucky again or maybe we end up being like the Bears or the 70's and 80's Packers and we have to suffer through years of dismal QB play trying to find the right guy.

(I also realize that regardless of being vets or rookies you need to keep your team relatively healthy and a little luck never hurts in trying to win trophies but that's an entirely different discussion.)

[bobblehead]

Shields is their best corner, he would have gotten Crabtree. Crab doesn't average 17 yards per catch on Shields without another INT.

But the wholesale change needed is pass rush. Yes an ILB or Safety are called for. But without a pass rush, its not going to matter. Without drafting in the top 15 or signing a free agent, the Packers are not going to have a Justin Smith on the field soon. But they need to discover an Aldon Smith somewhere, keep Daniels and keep Matthews healthy.

Without a pass rush the Packer nearly took away four balls from Kapernick. Think what a pass rush could add to that.

Can you ever get a pass rush if the only 2 linemen are 2 gapping?

[bobblehead]

You think there is an association between PEDs and broken thumb bones?

Clearly when you get so strong that you are benching 700 pounds it puts a lot of strain on the thumb

[bobblehead]

What I was getting at is you need to separate the injuries resulting from contact (with other players or the field) from the conditioning/training type stuff like hamstrings and quads. That'll give you a much better idea whether we need changes to our training/medical staff. No matter the numbers, it's silly to blame the those folks for guys getting torn apart on the field. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes bad luck is just bad luck, no matter how tempting it is to find some tinfoil hat theory to blame it on.

But as I have said, when your coach has a high priority on limiting your ability to PRACTICE contact, you don't execute it the same way. Example: If I took someone who hadn't done a deadlift in a year and asked him to go compete, he likely gets hurt. If however he practices his deadlift with say 80% max weight for a few weeks he likely doesn't get hurt. Same goes for hitting another 250+ pound man full speed. Best practice it at least at 80% speed a couple times a week.

[Carolina_Packer]

Can you ever get a pass rush if the only 2 linemen are 2 gapping?

This is a very interesting article about the 2-4-5 and 1-5-5 nickel alignments:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/9/21/1047264/the-2-4-5-and-1-5-5-revealed

It's Steeler-centric and a little dated on some of the personnel mentioned, but gets the point across, especially since they are a 3-4.

When I read this article and I think about the Steeler defensive personnel referenced and then I think about Green Bay's defensive personnel, I think, no contest. If you had the defensive personnel mentioned, you'd probably run the 2-4-5 or 1-5-5 as well. They have enough good line-backers who know how to pass rush and get pressure on the QB who don't often miss when trying to get to the QB, or let him escape the pocket. Those kinds of line-backers in that alignment make all the difference.

Green Bay does not have nearly the collective group, and it's obviously not easy to assemble such a great group of line-backers, but that's how you make that alignment work. Wouldn't you agree?

So what type of nickel package alignment would be more "practical" given the Packers current defensive personnel?

[th87]

But as I have said, when your coach has a high priority on limiting your ability to PRACTICE contact, you don't execute it the same way. Example: If I took someone who hadn't done a deadlift in a year and asked him to go compete, he likely gets hurt. If however he practices his deadlift with say 80% max weight for a few weeks he likely doesn't get hurt. Same goes for hitting another 250+ pound man full speed. Best practice it at least at 80% speed a couple times a week.

Agreed here.

In addition, broken bones/ligament damage can also correlate to training methods. While contact is inevitable, maybe said contact doesn't need to result in breaks/tears.

[bobblehead]

Agreed here.

In addition, broken bones/ligament damage can also correlate to training methods. While contact is inevitable, maybe said contact doesn't need to result in breaks/tears.

From personal experience and what i have witnessed, the guys who practice 100mph (an piss off some teammates) don't get hurt as often. As a coach told me very young, if you aren't looking to lay a hit on someone, you will take one, and its more likely to get you hurt if you take it. I think MM has a priority on walk throughs. Making sure guys know their positioning/leverage.

Problem is this: If the other guy isn't resisting your walk through, you passively approach it in games as well. You don't do it instinctively. End result...you get hurt and/or beat.

Now I can't criticize MM's body of work, but in this area (and I'm going on all the early stuff he said and did) he lacks. I know he started practicing outdoors after it obviously cost them games in the past, I'm just hoping someone talks him into having guys go a little harder in practice. I'm not talking full boar, get hurt on wednesday stuff, simply asking that we hit and fight for position enough that they are ready for it in games.

[wist43]

This is a very interesting article about the 2-4-5 and 1-5-5 nickel alignments:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/9/21/1047264/the-2-4-5-and-1-5-5-revealed

It's Steeler-centric and a little dated on some of the personnel mentioned, but gets the point across, especially since they are a 3-4.

When I read this article and I think about the Steeler defensive personnel referenced and then I think about Green Bay's defensive personnel, I think, no contest. If you had the defensive personnel mentioned, you'd probably run the 2-4-5 or 1-5-5 as well. They have enough good line-backers who know how to pass rush and get pressure on the QB who don't often miss when trying to get to the QB, or let him escape the pocket. Those kinds of line-backers in that alignment make all the difference.

Green Bay does not have nearly the collective group, and it's obviously not easy to assemble such a great group of line-backers, but that's how you make that alignment work. Wouldn't you agree?

So what type of nickel package alignment would be more "practical" given the Packers current defensive personnel?

I laid out this argument in some detail in one of the other threads - the 49er thread I think - and the answer is the 3-3.

Our front seven is more heavily invested in DL talent, and we are especially weak at LB - moreso with Matthews out. So instead of having Pickett and both Brad Jones and AJ Hawk on the field, you have 1 of those guys and D. Jones and Daniels. The biggest problem we have with the 2-4 is that we get run on in run/pass situations - couple that with the problems we have in the secondary, the lack of pressure that we generate from the 2-4 makes us vulnerable to the pass in that alignment as well.

You address both of those problems (even if not actually solving them, given the personnel shortcomings), by adding a more talented DL for a less talented LB. It gives you more size in your front to address the run, and it gives you more pass rush and push if the offense ends up passing.