Shield's testing the market

[mraynrand]

You'd have to prove to me that every team runs a 2-4 as their "go-to" nickel... there's no way that is the case.

The 4-3 teams simply go to a 4-2, and have for as long as father time has been growing his beard.

Now if you want to argue that most versions of the 2-4 are in fact, a 4-2?? I'll go along with that, but if that is the case, a team better have the 4-3 defensive personnel to pull it off, i.e. big budget DE's, and gap penetrating DT's.

The way Capers runs it, he's saying he can stop the run too... as you've pointed out. Of course that is not the case - teams run on us on 3rd and 6, and get the 1st down!!!

Or in these cases when Forte walks into the end zone on 1st and goal!!!

At 2:00 and 2:53 Capers runs the 2-4 on 1st and goal.

wow, just wow...

What you continually fail to recognize is the effect of personnel. Bears are running three wide with Bennett at TE. That's four legit receiving threats, not to mention Forte out of the backfield. Chicago passes far more often than they run on that down and distance. Earlier in the year, Neal was in the 2-4 with Jones, but late in the year, with injuries - esp to Jolly, the rotation changed. So now you have Neal, Pick and Raji. That's 3 down linemen, depending on how you look at Neal. on the other side, Mulumba is filling in for Perry and Matthews who are both out at that point, and Lattimore is in for Brad Jones. Blame the 2-4 all you want, but you put in an extra fatty lineman (the rookie? Who? D. Jones or Daniels), and your ability to cover the TE or RB is compromised. Funny that Neal recognized the run, but didn't get there. On the other side, would have preferred Perry over Mulumba who got killed, but Perry was hurt. Would have preferred Matthews to Perry or Lattimore, but Matthews was hurt. I guess Capers biggest failure is his inability to just conjure up new pro bowl personnel using spells and incantations.

[3irty1]

You'd have to prove to me that every team runs a 2-4 as their "go-to" nickel... there's no way that is the case.

The 4-3 teams simply go to a 4-2, and have for as long as father time has been growing his beard.

Now if you want to argue that most versions of the 2-4 are in fact, a 4-2?? I'll go along with that, but if that is the case, a team better have the 4-3 defensive personnel to pull it off, i.e. big budget DE's, and gap penetrating DT's.

The way Capers runs it, he's saying he can stop the run too... as you've pointed out. Of course that is not the case - teams run on us on 3rd and 6, and get the 1st down!!!

Or in these cases when Forte walks into the end zone on 1st and goal!!!

At 2:00 and 2:53 Capers runs the 2-4 on 1st and goal.

wow, just wow...

I dug this 2011 data up:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][B]Pkg[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 69"][B]3-4-4[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 48"][B]4-3-4[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 53"][B]5-2-4[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 50"][B]2-4-5[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 49"][B]3-3-5[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 52"][B]4-2-5[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 49"][B]1-4-6[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 41"][B]2-3-6[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 52"][B]3-2-6[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 47"][B]4-1-6[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 63"][B]1-3-7[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 47"][B]Other[/B][/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]ARZ[/TD]
 [TD]49%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]45%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]ATL[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]49%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]BLT[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]36%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]8%[/TD]
 [TD]21%[/TD]
 [TD]22%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]BUF[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]26%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]9%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]21%[/TD]
 [TD]21%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]CAR[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]51%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]38%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]8%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]CHI[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]47%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]53%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]CIN[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]51%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]46%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]CLV[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]54%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]11%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]DAL[/TD]
 [TD]34%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]18%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]8%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]DEN[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]38%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]DET[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]48%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]45%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]GB[/TD]
 [TD]27%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]62%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]HST[/TD]
 [TD]57%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]38%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]IND[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]61%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]36%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]JAX[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]45%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]34%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]12%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]KC[/TD]
 [TD]55%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]9%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]32%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]MIA[/TD]
 [TD]30%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]27%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]MIN[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]42%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]54%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NE[/TD]
 [TD]12%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]33%[/TD]
 [TD]12%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NO[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]36%[/TD]
 [TD]10%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NYG[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]22%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]22%[/TD]
 [TD]46%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NYJ[/TD]
 [TD]37%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]19%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]16%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]OAK[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]37%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]18%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]30%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]PHI[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]41%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]46%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]10%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]PIT[/TD]
 [TD]58%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]26%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]15%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]SD[/TD]
 [TD]50%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]37%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]SEA[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]56%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]35%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]SF[/TD]
 [TD]45%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]42%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]11%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]SL[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]56%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]15%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]27%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]TB[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]52%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]9%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]TEN[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]42%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]11%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]WAS[/TD]
 [TD]53%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NFL[/TD]
 [TD]16%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]10%[/TD]
 [TD]9%[/TD]
 [TD]20%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So what I said wasn't true because there was one 3-4 team that didn't use the 2-4 as a go to nickel which was the Jets although they apparently also ran a 1-3-7 16% of the time which I can only imagine would triple your blood pressure as a fan.

We ran a shitload of nickel in situations where other teams would run a 3-4 and also when other teams would run a 2-3 dime. So now perhaps it's clear what I've been saying, that I don't want to throw out the 2-4 altogether because that's nuts, I just want to throw out the Pickett+Raji version and replace those snaps with something more conventional. Do this and our % would be in line with Arizona, SF, and Washington.

[red]

so are we a 3-4 team, or are we really a 2-4? seeings how that chart says we were in a 2-4 more then twice as often as we were in our base 3-4, i would say the capers d is a base 2-4

so based on that, wist would win the internet

[mraynrand]

So now perhaps it's clear what I've been saying, that I don't want to throw out the 2-4 altogether because that's nuts, I just want to throw out the Pickett+Raji version and replace those snaps with something more conventional. Do this and our % would be in line with Arizona, SF, and Washington.

When I get more data, I'll start a new thread about the 2-4. But given that the Packers NEVER ran the Raji-Pickett 2-4 in the opener, when they had their preferred personnel available, I suspect that Capers doesn't like the Raji-Pick 2-4 and that they won't run it even if they get those guys back, APRH. They used D. Jones and Neal exclusively in the 2-4 in the opener.

[mraynrand]

so are we a 3-4 team, or are we really a 2-4? seeings how that chart says we were in a 2-4 more then twice as often as we were in our base 3-4, i would say the capers d is a base 2-4

so based on that, wist would win the internet

It depends on who they play against and who you count as an OLB or DE. Against SF, the Packers were largely 3-4 with the 3 being an assortment of 79-90-97. But you can go 2-4 with Perry and Neal and have flexibility to defend the run. But the Packers rarely ran the 2-4 when expecting run. But that's based on limited data. Eventually, I'll get through the entire season and we'll see...

[red]

It depends on who they play against and who you count as an OLB or DE. Against SF, the Packers were largely 3-4 with the 3 being an assortment of 79-90-97. But you can go 2-4 with Perry and Neal and have flexibility to defend the run. But the Packers rarely ran the 2-4 when expecting run. But that's based on limited data. Eventually, I'll get through the entire season and we'll see...

are neal and perry lined up on the line and rushing, making it a 4-2? or are they off the line and dropping into coverage, meaning you're taking to guys that suck at coverage, and making them cover?

after watching the video against the bears, i guess i don't have a problem with the 3-4 or 2-4 or 4-2 part, its the fact that we are in the nickle on first and goal

the 3-4 is suppose to be the more athletic formation already seeings how you have 4 smaller speedier LB's on the field instead of 4 bigger slower linemen. why do we need to go even more athletic then that?

i think if we got 1 or 2 safeties that are worth a shit, and 1 or 2 LB's that could cover, then maybe we wouldn't have to play the nickle on 2/3rds of our plays

[3irty1]

so are we a 3-4 team, or are we really a 2-4? seeings how that chart says we were in a 2-4 more then twice as often as we were in our base 3-4, i would say the capers d is a base 2-4

so based on that, wist would win the internet

Our base defense is a 3-4 but only because the 2-4 is a derived from that which is what base D is supposed to mean. There are a bunch of 4-3 teams that spend more time in their 4-2 subpackage but that doesn't make it not a subpackage. I get what you're saying though, we use the 2-4 for everything, even when other teams would use a dime. No wonder in 2011 the middle of the field was wide open all year.

[mraynrand]

are neal and perry lined up on the line and rushing, making it a 4-2? or are they off the line and dropping into coverage, meaning you're taking to guys that suck at coverage, and making them cover?

So far, I've rarely seen Perry or Neal in coverage. Pass rushing or run fits mostly.

[mraynrand]

I get what you're saying though, we use the 2-4 for everything, even when other teams would use a dime. No wonder in 2011 the middle of the field was wide open all year.

Maybe 2013 as well. This is an interesting point, because the Packers did use the 2-4 a lot on passing downs and against SF, gave up some of their bigger completions - at least in the first half. Given that they were missing Burnett and relying on McMillian and Jennings, in retrospect it seems like a bad gamble, even though SF had fewer receiving threats at the time (Crabtree and Manningham out).

[pbmax]

Why in poo-perfect hell would a 4-3 team run a 2-4??

Invest all those $millions in DL, and then plunk their ass on the bench??

Get real max.

They have been a multiple front for years. Suggs was always a one man hybrid at 260. With Dumerville there at 5' 11", that is a three four. When they go heavy, they stick what-his-name from Alabama in there.

You could call it a Pete Carroll 4-3 Elephant, but its a smaller front in any alignment than the Packers throw out there. In their pass rush package, there are only 2 true D lineman.

[mraynrand]

after watching the video against the bears, i guess i don't have a problem with the 3-4 or 2-4 or 4-2 part, its the fact that we are in the nickle on first and goal

Red, what the hell else are you to do when they show 3 wides and have Bennett and Forte? And their tendency is to pass. If it was first and goal from the 1 or 2, sure, load up the line. But from the 6, they showed pass. Packers had it well defended scheme-wise. It's just that Mulumba can't hold up to run blocking like Perry or Matthews, and to get bigger means a rookie DL or two pass rushers (D. Jones, Daniels). Options were limited by personnel.

[pbmax]

A 4-3 morphing into a 4-2 nickel is not trying to keep size on the field. One of those lineman on the field is probably Kampman sized or less.

They are taking off a thumping MLB to replace him with a DB. Given that 4-3 D's tend to rely on either the MLB or the Will (with the MLB taking on a Guard/FB) to make most plays, they are making the same run soundness for pass defense substitution every team makes in nickel.

The exception to this would be if you were Jim Haslett and you have asked for one or two big thumpers at ILB. Then you might have to run 3-3 or at least sub out a different LB for Levon Kirkland.

And even then, you might be sending in a pass rush specialist to replace one of the 3 D lineman as well.

[mraynrand]

^^^ that's fine for the nickel, but what about the dime - then you need to go 2-3-6. I am taking 31's word for it that the packers got burned a lot running the 2-4 in 2011 on passing downs. That seems unsound.

[wist43]

I dug this 2011 data up:

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD][B]Pkg[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 69"][B]3-4-4[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 48"][B]4-3-4[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 53"][B]5-2-4[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 50"][B]2-4-5[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 49"][B]3-3-5[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 52"][B]4-2-5[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 49"][B]1-4-6[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 41"][B]2-3-6[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 52"][B]3-2-6[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 47"][B]4-1-6[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 63"][B]1-3-7[/B][/TD]
 [TD="width: 47"][B]Other[/B][/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]ARZ[/TD]
 [TD]49%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]45%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]ATL[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]49%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]BLT[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]36%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]8%[/TD]
 [TD]21%[/TD]
 [TD]22%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]BUF[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]26%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]9%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]21%[/TD]
 [TD]21%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]CAR[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]51%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]38%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]8%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]CHI[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]47%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]53%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]CIN[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]51%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]46%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]CLV[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]54%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]11%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]DAL[/TD]
 [TD]34%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]18%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]8%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]DEN[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]38%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]DET[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]48%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]45%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]GB[/TD]
 [TD]27%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]62%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]HST[/TD]
 [TD]57%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]38%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]IND[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]61%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]36%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]JAX[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]45%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]34%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]12%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]KC[/TD]
 [TD]55%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]9%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]32%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]MIA[/TD]
 [TD]30%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]27%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]MIN[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]42%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]54%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NE[/TD]
 [TD]12%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]33%[/TD]
 [TD]12%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NO[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]36%[/TD]
 [TD]10%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NYG[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]22%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]22%[/TD]
 [TD]46%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NYJ[/TD]
 [TD]37%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]19%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]16%[/TD]
 [TD]7%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]OAK[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]37%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]18%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]30%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]PHI[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]41%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]46%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]10%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]PIT[/TD]
 [TD]58%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]26%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]15%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]SD[/TD]
 [TD]50%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]37%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]SEA[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]56%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]35%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]4%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]SF[/TD]
 [TD]45%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]42%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]11%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]SL[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]56%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]15%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]27%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]TB[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]52%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]9%[/TD]
 [TD]6%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]TEN[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]42%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]11%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]WAS[/TD]
 [TD]53%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]44%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]2%[/TD]
 [/TR]
 [TR]
 [TD]NFL[/TD]
 [TD]16%[/TD]
 [TD]29%[/TD]
 [TD]0%[/TD]
 [TD]10%[/TD]
 [TD]9%[/TD]
 [TD]20%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]5%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
 [TD]1%[/TD]
 [TD]3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So what I said wasn't true because there was one 3-4 team that didn't use the 2-4 as a go to nickel which was the Jets although they apparently also ran a 1-3-7 16% of the time which I can only imagine would triple your blood pressure as a fan.

We ran a shitload of nickel in situations where other teams would run a 3-4 and also when other teams would run a 2-3 dime. So now perhaps it's clear what I've been saying, that I don't want to throw out the 2-4 altogether because that's nuts, I just want to throw out the Pickett+Raji version and replace those snaps with something more conventional. Do this and our % would be in line with Arizona, SF, and Washington.

Excellent find, I will assume the numbers are correct...

But just as with players at DE/OLB and TE/WR (Jimmy Graham) trying to redesignate what they are for franchise tag purposes, how do these statistics define fronts?? As with Dallas's Demarcus Ware. He is listed as a DE, and I assume when they are defined as being in a 3-4, his hand is on the ground vs. when they are defining them to be in a 2-4, or a 2-3, he is standing up??

As for the Packers, that chart backs up my argument that we play more 2-4 than anyone in the league - by a wide margin. Arizona, SF, and Washington are the only ones that are even within 20% points, and each of them runs more 3-4 than they do 2-4.

Green Bay on the other hand is listed at 62% 2-4, and only 27% 3-4.

As I said, no one else is even close... this backs up my argument.

Excellent use of the internet my friend, lol...

[red]

Red, what the hell else are you to do when they show 3 wides and have Bennett and Forte? And their tendency is to pass. If it was first and goal from the 1 or 2, sure, load up the line. But from the 6, they showed pass. Packers had it well defended scheme-wise. It's just that Mulumba can't hold up to run blocking like Perry or Matthews, and to get bigger means a rookie DL or two pass rushers (D. Jones, Daniels). Options were limited by personnel.

my understanding is that the ILB's are suppose to be able to drop back or at least stay where they are to help in coverage. we play a zone, not a man, so we don't need to go hat for hat

like PB said, taking out a bigger LB, for a smaller CB doesn't seem all that smart in most situations