Official Packers/Vikings Discussion Thread Week 5

[pbmax]

You said you didn't agree with me on the causes of "the meltdown"... I assume you were talking about defense?

Since my argument is we are unsound in how we defend the run, line up in the front (six), and defend the middle of the field in general - you must agree with how Dom does those things...

3irty1 wants to blame the players - Dom is a genius of course... I guess you're in that camp.

I agree on all areas of concern (middle of D in general, run D and over pursuit in particular). I don't agree that Capers is designing unsound defenses.

But unless you have a lead, you cannot combine a pass defense focus with shoddy run defense fundamentals and they haven't had that squared away since 2010 and the first 7 games of 2013.

[pbmax]

think Devon House falling every pass play terrible.

Good comparison. Also reminds me;

Keys To The Game: Wear Correct Shoes, Don't Fall Down

[wist43]

I agree on all areas of concern (middle of D in general, run D and over pursuit in particular). I don't agree that Capers is designing unsound defenses.

But unless you have a lead, you cannot combine a pass defense focus with shoddy run defense fundamentals and they haven't had that squared away since 2010 and the first 7 games of 2013.

If what Capers is doing is sound, then I would hate to see what you would consider unsound.

Lining up in the nickel, with only 2 DL on the field on 3rd and 1?? Okay fine, let's say that's a grand idea - is positioning both of your DL outside the Guards "sound"?? The center must be wondering, "... where the fuck did the defensive line go"?? Cutler had to be wondering - "wow, I guess they want me to run for 20 yds... what's the catch"??

The Lockette TD is a perfect example of being unsound - and not just b/c the player on the back end is a rookie in his first game.

I don't watch nearly as much football as I used to, but I can't remember ever seeing a defense allow more free runners, more uncontested catches, more blown assignments, more instances of being outmanned at the POA, on and on...

If you think what Capers is doing is sound - then it is 100% on the players - which means it is 100% on TT.

[pbmax]

Apropos of this discussion, is this article, from the somewhat surprising source of Tom Silverstein, about how the Packers are choosing to defend teams. Commit more to the run or to the pass? Capers is choosing to commit to stopping the pass.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/dom-capers-more-focused-on-stopping-receivers-b99362613z1-277844821.html

[Fritz]

Weird after all those years of Ryan Pickett as spokesperson talking about how important it was to stop the run.

[pbmax]

My guess is that this is a function of not being able to generate a great pass rush with four people. If you do that, playing pass D in base and not giving up big passes is much easier. See Lions D versus Packers this year.

[Fritz]

Okay, let me go on record as having a crisis of confidence in the Packers. Not just this year's team, but perhaps the direction of the franchise.

For years, I firmly believed that it was the damn plethora of injuries, relentless, constant, that undermined the Packer teams of the past three years. I even heard a stat two days ago on the radio that Green Bay had suffered more injury games-lost than any other team. I figured that if they'd had their team even half-healthy, all the bozo defensive breakdowns and offensive-line misses wouldn't have occurred so frequently. Not that it was the only reason - I knew better than that - but I believed it to be the biggest factor.

Now, however, the Packers are - knock on wood - one of the if not the healthiest team in the division. Yet the defense continues to leak like a 60 year-old-man's penis after a long bike ride, and the offense is as inconsistent as a three-titted woman.

I now wonder if TT finally has whiffed on too many early rounders lately (Sherrod, Perry, Worthy, maybe even Jones), and if Capers has completely cemented his reputation as someone who can work wonders in year one but cannot sustain the success. And I think back to Patler's comments about the decreasing effectiveness of head coaches (and maybe GM's?) as they pass the eight-year mark of their regimes.

My confidence is shaken.

[wist43]

Apropos of this discussion, is this article, from the somewhat surprising source of Tom Silverstein, about how the Packers are choosing to defend teams. Commit more to the run or to the pass? Capers is choosing to commit to stopping the pass.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packe...277844821.html

Okay then - is that a "sound" approach??

I would argue absolutely not.

Since running the ball is inherently safer, i.e. less chance of a turnover or negative play, and dunderdummy is willing to concede that - and we then have to accept all of the negative consequences that come along with that, i.e. most notably TOP differential - that has to be a recipe for failure, i.e. it is philosophically unsound.

Reading that article, it's pretty clear to me that Capers doesn't care about the run, he doesn't care about the LOS, he doesn't care about TOP - it seems he doesn't care about playing good defense. It sounds like he believes the dreaded "bend but don't break" defense should be our full-time base, lol... what an idiot!! Can't believe MM and TT have bought into this clown.

He needs to retire.

[3irty1]

Its too early in the season for my confidence to be shaken. A season almost never looks like it did last year where the two offseason champs stomp the whole league for 18 weeks then play each other. In recent years its been more common for some team to barely make the playoffs then emerge as a powerhouse in the post season. You don't want the playoffs to be the first time you face adversity. Its like the 2010 packers vs the 2011 packers.

I think this team's best can beat anyone anywhere. They just need to have it figured out in time like the Ravens, Giants, Packers, Steelers, Giants have before.

[Carolina_Packer]

Okay, let me go on record as having a crisis of confidence in the Packers. Not just this year's team, but perhaps the direction of the franchise.

For years, I firmly believed that it was the damn plethora of injuries, relentless, constant, that undermined the Packer teams of the past three years. I even heard a stat two days ago on the radio that Green Bay had suffered more injury games-lost than any other team. I figured that if they'd had their team even half-healthy, all the bozo defensive breakdowns and offensive-line misses wouldn't have occurred so frequently. Not that it was the only reason - I knew better than that - but I believed it to be the biggest factor.

Now, however, the Packers are - knock on wood - one of the if not the healthiest team in the division. Yet the defense continues to leak like a 60 year-old-man's penis after a long bike ride, and the offense is as inconsistent as a three-titted woman.

I now wonder if TT finally has whiffed on too many early rounders lately (Sherrod, Perry, Worthy, maybe even Jones), and if Capers has completely cemented his reputation as someone who can work wonders in year one but cannot sustain the success. And I think back to Patler's comments about the decreasing effectiveness of head coaches (and maybe GM's?) as they pass the eight-year mark of their regimes.

My confidence is shaken.

I agree Fritz. There's always some reason/excuse why the defense is not right. After a while most fan's are just like, "Get it fixed, already" We don't expect the defense to be as good as the offense, but how about just consistently productive? Like last year when we shut down Detroit at home and Baltimore on the road, then A-Rod gets hurt and then we suddenly can't tackle. Whether Capers fault or not, it's his responsibility to come up with a consistently productive defense and they are not there. Let's see them gel and stack their success instead of two steps forward, three steps back.

[hoosier]

Its too early in the season for my confidence to be shaken. A season almost never looks like it did last year where the two offseason champs stomp the whole league for 18 weeks then play each other. In recent years its been more common for some team to barely make the playoffs then emerge as a powerhouse in the post season. You don't want the playoffs to be the first time you face adversity. Its like the 2010 packers vs the 2011 packers.

I think this team's best can beat anyone anywhere. They just need to have it figured out in time like the Ravens, Giants, Packers, Steelers, Giants have before.

+1. The 2012 and 2013 versions didn't get it figured out and as a result they got to play the sacrificial lamb role in January. If this team can avoid the injury epidemic for an entire season maybe things turn out differently.

[denverYooper]

Its too early in the season for my confidence to be shaken. A season almost never looks like it did last year where the two offseason champs stomp the whole league for 18 weeks then play each other. In recent years its been more common for some team to barely make the playoffs then emerge as a powerhouse in the post season. You don't want the playoffs to be the first time you face adversity. Its like the 2010 packers vs the 2011 packers.

I think this team's best can beat anyone anywhere. They just need to have it figured out in time like the Ravens, Giants, Packers, Steelers, Giants have before.

Yes.

At this point, they've reworked their defense in response to the issues they've had over the last few seasons. Will it end up being a disaster in the end? Maybe, but they had to do something different. At least they're decent at one thing so far -- defending the pass -- instead of sucking at everything.

[mission]

I was talking about the odds of this being a close game (under 9 points). What are you talking about?

Now I'm not gambling anymore because I wasn't profitable (too much "emotion/hunch betting") so my opinion isn't worth very much (at all), but spread seems to beg for money on the Vikings side given the larger number and that 9 points isn't really considered much different than 7.5 points. It's a bad number to take up to -9.5 for the Vikings but the "public" sees that and wants to jump all over it. Screams a blow-out really; just remember spreads are not a predictor of the score, but a way to get 50/50 money on each side so they books are not exposed and can rake their 10% vig.

[Guiness]

Now I'm not gambling anymore because I wasn't profitable (too much "emotion/hunch betting") so my opinion isn't worth very much (at all), but spread seems to beg for money on the Vikings side given the larger number and that 9 points isn't really considered much different than 7.5 points. It's a bad number to take up to -9.5 for the Vikings but the "public" sees that and wants to jump all over it. Screams a blow-out really; just remember spreads are not a predictor of the score, but a way to get 50/50 money on each side so they books are not exposed and can rake their 10% vig.

Agreed, 9 points means money so far is on the Packers. Still, it's attractive.

[pbmax]

mission's advice seems like it was spot on.