More Banjo: @ Saints Week Oh Who the *$%&! Cares

[Maxie the Taxi]

I think Patler's on to something. I've never heard that about Stubby, but it makes sense. I've often thought that when the Packers' falter it's due to a lack of emotion, a lack of instinctual play...especially on defense.

Take the NO game for example. I've been following the Saints quite closely because of my proximity to them. I knew the Saints had a huge chip on their shoulder and intense resolve. The Packers were walking into an emotional cauldron. I think the Packers' initial success trading scores might have been due to the cerebral nature of the offense Patler described. But I felt the defense was flat and uninspired from the opening kickoff.

Football is a game of emotions. Stubby rarely shows emotion on the sidelines. It's strange that perennially successful coaches like Sean Payton and Belicheck have a way of getting their teams up emotionally but also trade on the cerebral aspects as well.

[Maxie the Taxi]

See, I think this analysis is self contradictory. When Capers arrived, he had a great run defense and that was where the emphasis was. He had to scheme and get nuts with fronts and blitzes to get pressure. The only year they both worked in concert was 2010, not surprisingly.

Since then, the pass rush has been middling and trending down. But unlike 2009, so is the run D. Peppers has helped the pass D, but it hasn't been consistent enough to stop opposing O's.

You may be right. I'm operating with a memory like a sieve. If what you say is accurate, Dom apparently has changed his philosophy. I mean in his early days he had bigger defensive linemen, didn't he? And guys like Cullen Jenkins?

[pbmax]

You may be right. I'm operating with a memory like a sieve. If what you say is accurate, Dom apparently has changed his philosophy. I mean in his early days he had bigger defensive linemen, didn't he? And guys like Cullen Jenkins?

Yes, though Cullen Jenkins would look small on the lines of 2010-2012 (well, skinny anyway). He was a tweener DT, 6' 4" and grew to 300 pounds. While he was in the League position demands morphed to make him suitable to play DE in a 3-4. And the bad run D in '11 and '12 don't augur well for the big lineman theory of run D. That only seemed to work for a few games in 2013.

But Jenkins only started in 2009 at DE. He was replaced to get Raji in at Nose and that moved Pickett to End. Jenkins then became the designated pass rusher. He was effective and he and Clay were almost, but not quite, enough to put the Packers D deep into the playoffs. His departure marked a lessening of pass rush but there were other problems that we are still experiencing now.

I really do think Patler nailed it and something about how the team is put together and trained leaves some holes. I don't think its hitting during the season (virtually no one does that anymore including the Seahawks) or live tackling in camp (less than half of teams do). The Packers have added the half line drill back for the last two years, but even last year it took some time before it seemed to be helping and I am not sure that last year's running success wasn't more Bach/Barclay/Lacy/Starks(healthy) related than half-line drill related. Half line drills aren't a panacea this year for certain.

But the same problems keep cropping up with new casts of characters. Its systemic and I don't find it convincing that Capers has forgotten how to game plan.

[Maxie the Taxi]

As you know, I don't know a lot about the technicalities of defensive football, so I defer to you on that.

But I do think I can recognize talent...and talent will out in my opinion over any scheme. And when I went back to check on Dom's first years in Green Bay, starting in 2009, I have to say my impression is that the players on those early teams were far more talented than the players we have now.

I wrote earlier that we have the players to compete. In reality, maybe we don't. Maybe several years in a row of low draft choices and FA inactivity are catching up with us. Maybe Dom is scheming the hell out of things because he just doesn't have the players to accomplish what he'd really like to.

[Pugger]

MM has now had two entirely different defensive coaching staffs (except for Winston Moss), and having a good defense remains the aberration, not the norm.
The same can be said for ST's.
Has he had bad staffs twice for each, D and ST?
Is it on TT?

...or, is there something about MM's entire program layout, for off season, training camp and in season, that does not foster quality performances from ST and D units? MM is an acknowledged micro-manager in terms of practice layouts, with detail for what everyone is doing every minute of time. He has acknowledged having many volumes of notebooks laying out every minute of every day when the team is in the facilities. His system has consistently turned out exceptional offenses and bad defenses and special teams.

If I were to select one word to describe his offenses, it is "cerebral". Players have to read, communicate and react. Everyone has to read and react the same. His practices are geared to efficiency, with an emphasis on calm. He talks about teaching, says littlea bout and almost practices against emotion. This seems to work for offensive performance, especially for the passing game, and maybe somewhat less successfully for a running game. Is his "thinking man" approach to workouts and practices inconsistent with the development of the playing characteristics that make for good defenses and special teams?

To borrow a phrase, does MM's program approach develop teams that are too soft to play well on D and ST, while being high achievers on O?

Maybe Moss might be a problem? Wasn't he our ILB coach until this year and now he's in charge of the all?

[denverYooper]

As you know, I don't know a lot about the technicalities of defensive football, so I defer to you on that.

But I do think I can recognize talent...and talent will out in my opinion over any scheme. And when I went back to check on Dom's first years in Green Bay, starting in 2009, I have to say my impression is that the players on those early teams were far more talented than the players we have now.

I wrote earlier that we have the players to compete. In reality, maybe we don't. Maybe several years in a row of low draft choices and FA inactivity are catching up with us. Maybe Dom is scheming the hell out of things because he just doesn't have the players to accomplish what he'd really like to.

Yeah, look at the Broncos defense this year. They bought Talib, Ward, and Ware and now Von Miller is playing back up to his All-pro ability on a cheap contract (3.25 mil this year). Suddenly they look like the 96 Packers.

[Pugger]

Yeah, look at the Broncos defense this year. They bought Talib, Ward, and Ware and now Von Miller is playing back up to his All-pro ability on a cheap contract (3.25 mil this year). Suddenly they look like the 96 Packers.

It will be interesting to see how long they'll be this dominate...

[Maxie the Taxi]

Yeah, look at the Broncos defense this year. They bought Talib, Ward, and Ware and now Von Miller is playing back up to his All-pro ability on a cheap contract (3.25 mil this year). Suddenly they look like the 96 Packers.

Exactly. One reason I think TT and MM don't like to bring in FA's is that there system is so damn cerebral and complicated. They like young guys who grew up in the system rather than old dogs who maybe won't learn new tricks fast enough. That strategy might be sound if the young guys drafted are really good, but if they are mediocre, then it falls apart.

An example is Micah Hyde. The guy is good but not good enough to plan on and develop into a top notch starter, as opposed to a real, natural talent and high draft choice like Clinton-Dix.

You get enamored with these mediocre guys and before long you get to thinking they are better than they really are.

We've got a lot of undrafted, low draft choice, mediocre talent on our defense. Even our higher draft choices are not elite. Clay is the exception. Maybe Morgan Burnett. But who knows about Datone Jones? And Nick Perry? Mike Daniels?

Who are the potential All Pro's down the road on this Packer defense?

[denverYooper]

It will be interesting to see how long they'll be this dominate...

Until they have to pay Von Miller.

[smuggler]

I have tried to rationalize retaining Capers, and doing so gives me a new understanding of abused spouses. He must be fired (after the season). If MM will not do it, he must also be fired.

[pbmax]

Exactly. One reason I think TT and MM don't like to bring in FA's is that there system is so damn cerebral and complicated. They like young guys who grew up in the system rather than old dogs who maybe won't learn new tricks fast enough. That strategy might be sound if the young guys drafted are really good, but if they are mediocre, then it falls apart.

Interesting point. Usually the vet case is made that the Packers (and esp. Capers) needs vets because of their usual callow and inexperienced yutes. In fact, Le Beau doesn't want young players to have to play in Pitts D.

But I don't think Peppers has exhibited too many problems with his learning curve. I think the issue is mainly finance, risk and downside of careers with FAs. I doubt the Packers system is too complicated that it hampers FAs.

But perhaps the best point is the run D problem itself. Run D is keeping your defense in shape and on target (gap integrity). There are fewer lessens more basic than that in football but somehow the Packers need to relearn it every season. If Capers was being too complicated, it would show up more easily in the backfield.

[LEWCWA]

I dont know how much of an impact the injury really had.

To me, momentum had been lost and it had become a dog fight after the cutsie play with peppers followed by tue idiot onsides kick

We looked unstopable like last week before those two plays, and inept the rest of the game

I think we underestimated the saints, came out screwing around, and we werent prepaired to play the real football game that broke out

I agree, why do you come out and dig into your bag of tricks at the time they did? Packers were the better team, but MM called the game like they couldn't beat them mano on mano. I had a very bad feeling after the onside kick. How bout you just line up and take it to them, instead of gimmicks.

[George Cumby]

Soooooooo...... Fire McCarthy???????????

[Patler]

Soooooooo...... Fire McCarthy???????????

Nah, too much success for that. You can do so much worse than him.
You stick with him and encourage him to self-evaluate and evolve.

[Fritz]

Interesting point. Usually the vet case is made that the Packers (and esp. Capers) needs vets because of their usual callow and inexperienced yutes. In fact, Le Beau doesn't want young players to have to play in Pitts D.

But I don't think Peppers has exhibited too many problems with his learning curve. I think the issue is mainly finance, risk and downside of careers with FAs. I doubt the Packers system is too complicated that it hampers FAs.

But perhaps the best point is the run D problem itself. Run D is keeping your defense in shape and on target (gap integrity). There are fewer lessens more basic than that in football but somehow the Packers need to relearn it every season. If Capers was being too complicated, it would show up more easily in the backfield.

This is what's so maddening. Every year, the defensive players and coahces and MM talk about needing to to re-teach lower pad level and proper tackling form.

This past year, MM finally admitted something else needed to be done. So there was that whole confusing (for me) scheme-and-personnel song and dance, but here we are, half way through, and what's MM saying about this still-lousy defense? They need to tackle better.

Every year, the defense is the weak link, and ST is not far behind. Ted's 2012 defensive draft was mostly a bust, and Perry hasn't been much of a first rounder. So some blame to Ted, for sure. He seems to have a hard time drafting well on the defensive line and, outside of Matthews, in the linebacking corps.

But MM is the lead coach, and as others have said, he's on defensive coach #2, and it's been bad for about three-and-a-half seasons now, with some minor small stretches of good defense (a few games at the beginning of last season).

But it's not, and has not been since 2010, a defense that is going to get you past the first round, unless your first round opponent's QB is Joe Webb.

Something more than "we gotta tackle better" has to happen at the end of this season. Whether it's MM re-evaluating how his program can produce such good offenses and shitty defenses, or whether he shit-cans Capers and company, I don't know. But something's gotta happen, unless there's a magical second-half turnaround.

But even the most optimistic Packer fans have to be pretty dubious about that happening.