MVP debate: Who's most deserving? A.Rodgers - JJ Watt - T.Brady - P.Manning - D.Murray?

[Patler]

I agree that Rodgers will win it in all likelihood. For anyone other than a QB is a surprise, and for a defensive player to win would be a shock. It's easy to see players on offense as MVP, because they score points which are easy to associate win victories. It is much more difficult to tie players on defense to success of the team. No player is more closely tied to scoring points than the QBs.

I don't think it is "wrong" for Rodgers to win it this year. But I also don't think it would be "wrong" for Brady, Romo or Murray to win it.

If "most valuable" means most necessary for wins, then the award has to go to a QB of the Super Bowl contenders. But why is Rodgers the prohibitive favorite over the other QBs who took their teams to the playoffs? For Rodgers to be the hands-down favorite over Brady, you have to believe that New England would be significantly better with AR, and the Packers significantly worse with Brady. Same for the other QBS. I just don't see that as being the case.

[BZnDallas]

I agree that Rodgers will win it in all likelihood. For anyone other than a QB is a surprise, and for a defensive player to win would be a shock. It's easy to see players on offense as MVP, because they score points which are easy to associate win victories. It is much more difficult to tie players on defense to success of the team. No player is more closely tied to scoring points than the QBs.

I don't think it is "wrong" for Rodgers to win it this year. But I also don't think it would be "wrong" for Brady, Romo or Murray to win it.

If "most valuable" means most necessary for wins, then the award has to go to a QB of the Super Bowl contenders. But why is Rodgers the prohibitive favorite over the other QBs who took their teams to the playoffs? For Rodgers to be the hands-down favorite over Brady, you have to believe that New England would be significantly better with AR, and the Packers significantly worse with Brady. Same for the other QBS. I just don't see that as being the case.

TD/INT ratio, R-E-L-A-X, fake spike comeback win on road, Sundays drama filled cart-off and heroic lead of team after giving up lead and momentum to re-spark the team and lead to division win and placement of no. 2 seed.

There maybe a couple of other reasons you could add to this list as to why AR over other QBs for the MVP race, but these are off the top of my head.

[Patler]

The other playoff QBs have had no similar events? What about all of the dramatic late game wins that Stafford put together? Those were extremely significant in the Lions making the playoffs. I'm sure the others have had some important performances, too.

The over-hyped "R-E-L-A-X" thing? I'm not sure what that has to do with the MVP award. Brady made some bold statements when the Patriots were 2-2 as well. The media just picked up on AR's.

The fake spike? Just another play which has been done by others. Nothing novel or creative. Besides, the "most valuable" performer on the fake spike was probably Adams for recognizing it, making the catch and getting the first down.

To me, any "heroics" against Detroit are off set by AR crapping the bed against Buffalo. That was very un-MVP.

TD/INT ratio is a plus for sure. But his TD # alone was good, but certainly not overly impressive, and his low number of interceptions is somewhat offset by his consistent fumbling this year. He was very fortunate to lose only two of the 10 fumbles he had. But for a great effort by TJ Lang, one of the fumbles would have been a killer.

[Patler]

Romo lead a team that few predicted to do well, and elevated it to a division winner. He did so in such an efficient manner, that he beat Rodgers for highest QB rating. He did so with broken bones in his back. Is that any less heroic than Rodgers playing with a sore calf?

[woodbuck27]

Romo lead a team that few predicted to do well, and elevated it to a division winner. He did so in such an efficient manner, that he beat Rodgers for highest QB rating. He did so with broken bones in his back. Is that any less heroic than Rodgers playing with a sore calf?

Jeesssshh!

I hope none of the eligible voters see your posts Patler.

The headline:

Packer Nation votes to ban Packerrats.com

[BZnDallas]

The other playoff QBs have had no similar events? What about all of the dramatic late game wins that Stafford put together? Those were extremely significant in the Lions making the playoffs. I'm sure the others have had some important performances, too.

The over-hyped "R-E-L-A-X" thing? I'm not sure what that has to do with the MVP award. Brady made some bold statements when the Patriots were 2-2 as well. The media just picked up on AR's.

The fake spike? Just another play which has been done by others. Nothing novel or creative. Besides, the "most valuable" performer on the fake spike was probably Adams for recognizing it, making the catch and getting the first down.

To me, any "heroics" against Detroit are off set by AR crapping the bed against Buffalo. That was very un-MVP.

TD/INT ratio is a plus for sure. But his TD # alone was good, but certainly not overly impressive, and his low number of interceptions is somewhat offset by his consistent fumbling this year. He was very fortunate to lose only two of the 10 fumbles he had. But for a great effort by TJ Lang, one of the fumbles would have been a killer.

Very good points indeed and I agree with most of them. R elax was very much over-rated and I hated hearing about it for the following weeks. But for some it could be his calming leadership quality breaking through. As devils advocate I'll just say Stafford isnt even in the running. Romo has Murray to steal away votes and vice versa and Brady likes his triple fux too much.

Honestly Im with Wood on this one. Keep typing Patler and you might convince me Romo is the MVP.

[Cheesehead Craig]

I agree that Rodgers will win it in all likelihood. For anyone other than a QB is a surprise, and for a defensive player to win would be a shock. It's easy to see players on offense as MVP, because they score points which are easy to associate win victories. It is much more difficult to tie players on defense to success of the team. No player is more closely tied to scoring points than the QBs.

I don't think it is "wrong" for Rodgers to win it this year. But I also don't think it would be "wrong" for Brady, Romo or Murray to win it.

If "most valuable" means most necessary for wins, then the award has to go to a QB of the Super Bowl contenders. But why is Rodgers the prohibitive favorite over the other QBs who took their teams to the playoffs? For Rodgers to be the hands-down favorite over Brady, you have to believe that New England would be significantly better with AR, and the Packers significantly worse with Brady. Same for the other QBS. I just don't see that as being the case.

I don't know if Rodgers has to be "significantly better" than the competition, that's setting the bar pretty high for any player and I don't think you need to believe that to be the favorite. Rodgers was doing historic things this year at the QB position, I don't recall that being said of any of the other QBs in the playoffs.

[woodbuck27]

I don't know if Rodgers has to be "significantly better" than the competition, that's setting the bar pretty high for any player and I don't think you need to believe that to be the favorite. Rodgers was doing historic things this year at the QB position, I don't recall that being said of any of the other QBs in the playoffs.

That's where his application for MVP got some momentum.

Did he finish?

After a fumble (Buffalo) I believe he did.

[Cheesehead Craig]

The other playoff QBs have had no similar events? What about all of the dramatic late game wins that Stafford put together? Those were extremely significant in the Lions making the playoffs. I'm sure the others have had some important performances, too.

The over-hyped "R-E-L-A-X" thing? I'm not sure what that has to do with the MVP award. Brady made some bold statements when the Patriots were 2-2 as well. The media just picked up on AR's.

The fake spike? Just another play which has been done by others. Nothing novel or creative. Besides, the "most valuable" performer on the fake spike was probably Adams for recognizing it, making the catch and getting the first down.

To me, any "heroics" against Detroit are off set by AR crapping the bed against Buffalo. That was very un-MVP.

TD/INT ratio is a plus for sure. But his TD # alone was good, but certainly not overly impressive, and his low number of interceptions is somewhat offset by his consistent fumbling this year. He was very fortunate to lose only two of the 10 fumbles he had. But for a great effort by TJ Lang, one of the fumbles would have been a killer.

Romo lead a team that few predicted to do well, and elevated it to a division winner. He did so in such an efficient manner, that he beat Rodgers for highest QB rating. He did so with broken bones in his back. Is that any less heroic than Rodgers playing with a sore calf?

It's easy to point out the flaws for each candidate.

Romo has a fellow MVP candidate to hand the ball off to. A defense that has to load up to stop the run is much more susceptible vs the pass. Plus it helps when the defense goes from absolute worst in the league to at least respectible. Romo sure didn't elevate it alone, but QBs sure do get all the glory.

I know it's just a discussion point you're doing. Just having fun.

[mraynrand]

Romo lead a team that few predicted to do well, and elevated it to a division winner. He did so in such an efficient manner, that he beat Rodgers for highest QB rating. He did so with broken bones in his back. Is that any less heroic than Rodgers playing with a sore calf?

Romo versus Rodgers straight up seems pretty simple. Murray carried the load and Romo wasn't asked to do as much. Romo did play well, but I think the perception will be that Dallas' running game was a far bigger factor in Dallas' success than GB's/Lacy. I only watched maybe 4-5 cowboy games, but the degree of difficulty in the passing game seemed far less for Romo than Rodgers. On the other had, numbers are what they are, and Romo had great numbers and the Cowboys are America's Team, the most beloved franchise in the country, so Romo might get it. on the other foot, people hate Jerry Jones, so maybe not.

[denverYooper]

The other playoff QBs have had no similar events? What about all of the dramatic late game wins that Stafford put together? Those were extremely significant in the Lions making the playoffs. I'm sure the others have had some important performances, too.

The over-hyped "R-E-L-A-X" thing? I'm not sure what that has to do with the MVP award. Brady made some bold statements when the Patriots were 2-2 as well. The media just picked up on AR's.

The fake spike? Just another play which has been done by others. Nothing novel or creative. Besides, the "most valuable" performer on the fake spike was probably Adams for recognizing it, making the catch and getting the first down.

To me, any "heroics" against Detroit are off set by AR crapping the bed against Buffalo. That was very un-MVP.

TD/INT ratio is a plus for sure. But his TD # alone was good, but certainly not overly impressive, and his low number of interceptions is somewhat offset by his consistent fumbling this year. He was very fortunate to lose only two of the 10 fumbles he had. But for a great effort by TJ Lang, one of the fumbles would have been a killer.

Something can be creative without being novel. Most creative endeavors are not novel but are variations on a foundation of past creation. Jazz musicians, in the height of improvisational creation, will often "quote" other well-known phrases within the context of a solo. Rodgers's fake spike in that situation, in Miami where Dan Marino was considered to have crafted that move, was extremely creative and showed a level of transcendent awareness that few in the game can conjure. But I don't think that alone earns him the MVP.

Stafford had some late game heroics but if you look at his other stats, they're very ordinary. His YPA was 1.5 yards less than Rodgers, his rating was 30 points lower. Tom Brady was also 1.5 yards per attempt lower than Rodgers with almost 20 points' worse rating. Romo threw more INTs with a 1/2 yard lower YPA, plus he missed a game and had the most productive running back in the league this year.

Although he did fumble a lot, he ran a lot more than Romo(6 fumbles) Stafford (8), Brady(6), or Manning((5). Manning had 11 fumbles last year and still won the MVP. Big Ben had 9. Russell Wilson had 11 fumbles and several more rushing attempts. Andrew Luck ran about 20 more times and had 13 fumbles. QBs, because they are often hit with a less secure carry of the football and a lot more prone to blindsiding, are also at more risk for fumbling when they get hit than receivers or TEs. Running/Scrambling QBs generally have even higher fumble numbers, and his numbers are not out of line with other notable scramblers.

But if you want to play the woulda-coulda game on fumbles, he threw exactly 1 interception to a defender. 4 of his 5 INTs were off of deflections. So his INT numbers could have been even lower. He's pretty widely regarded by observers and statistics alike as the most accurate passer in the history of the game, and having the most accurate season of his career.

All of the other drops in the Buffalo game aside, if Jordy catches that TD pass, the Buffalo game looks very different. That cancels out his fumble and Lang's recovery (I guess).

[Pugger]

Woodbuck;

I didn't mean to imply that AR doesn't deserve it, I'm just fascinated that by about a month ago, it seemed his to lose. As of then, maybe even as of now, why is he anymore the clear cut front runner than Tom Brady or several others?

AR is what he is and has been for a number of years already. Why has the hype for MVP been all about him this year, but in 2012 not so much? 2011 was easy to understand. His performance that year was a notch above all other QBs. Has he been that much better this year than he was in 2012?

Personally, I didn't feel any drama on Sunday. AR went out with an injury that looked serious, but turned out to be not as bad as feared. I was very glad to see him back, but just didn't sense any real drama about it.

Rodgers was a slam dunk to win it all until that performance in Buffalo. His timing for laying an egg was poor to say the least. Before that game a small handful of folks talked about Murray and Watt (nobody considered Romo) but not seriously.

[Pugger]

Romo lead a team that few predicted to do well, and elevated it to a division winner. He did so in such an efficient manner, that he beat Rodgers for highest QB rating. He did so with broken bones in his back. Is that any less heroic than Rodgers playing with a sore calf?

A lot of folks question whether Romo is even the MVP on his own team - many think it is Murray - so how can he be the league's MVP?

[mraynrand]

To me, any "heroics" against Detroit are off set by AR crapping the bed against Buffalo. That was very un-MVP.

Rodgers isn't competing for the MVP against himself, but other QBs, who have crapped the bed too (e.g. Brady in KC, Manning several times). Don't recall how Romo did in his losses.

But I would argue that yes, heroics outweigh bed-crapping, so long as the heroics are in important games, and bed-crapping is in less important games. Favre used to do this in his MVP years too.

I think some bedsheets need washing.

[Patler]

I don't know if Rodgers has to be "significantly better" than the competition, that's setting the bar pretty high for any player and I don't think you need to believe that to be the favorite. Rodgers was doing historic things this year at the QB position, I don't recall that being said of any of the other QBs in the playoffs.

He's not just the favorite, it seems to be a foregone conclusion that he will win over any other QB. For others to be out of consideration, I think AR does have to be significantly better than they are.

What historic things was Rodgers doing? Avoiding interceptions? Nothing else that I can think of. Nice thing to do, but all in all probably not as important as some other QB things. Heck, how many times have writers brought up and we discussed the idea that his obsession might in fact be a weakness. Personally, I do not agree with this, but some writers and a few people on here have argued that he really should take a few more risks, even though that might lead to a few more interceptions. As I wrote before, I think the positive of his interception avoidance has been offset by his sloppy ball protection when being sacked. He had 10 fumbles this year. Jay Turnover had only two more.