ARE WE GIVING AROD A FREE PASS ??????????????????

[yetisnowman]

Doesn't the fact that Alex Smith and Jay Cutler have significant fourth quarter comebacks make you wonder about the efficacy of that measure?

Not at all. Does it mean they are better quarterbacks? Absolutely not. But it's dumbfounding to me that some of you guys think that a quarterback having a bad record in close games as a starter is irrelevant, or some cliched misrepresentation. He underperforms in late game situations in tight games. And yes I am designating the term underperforming. If Jay Cutler has more than double late game comeback drives than you I will say you are underperforming in that area.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Exactly. Brady was one Lynch run from having the media question whether he would ever win the SB again and why he had gone 0-3 in SB's over a 10 year stretch. Instead he will go down as 1 of the 2 best QB's ever. Football really is the true team sport. Our season was ruined by a 3rd string TE. Brady's season was saved, and his career will largely be remembered, by the actions of an undrafted rookie FA.

And he's also two difficult catches being dropped away from being a SIX times champ. You can spin it away you want it doesn't change the fact he has FOUR game winning drives in the superbowl. If Eli Manning doesn't complete that pass to Tyree he might have 5 and maybe even 6 with a little more luck. He could just as easily be 3-0 during that same span so trying to discredit what turned out to be yet another game winning drive is the same as arguing he could have had even more titles.

Even in the other two that he lost, when it came down to do or die time he put his team in the lead. The only difference is the defense held in this game and not in the other two.

Brady is number one all time now in my book. Rodgers is now 6-5 in the playoffs. This is his record during his prime years. He will be 32 next December so he's not exactly young anymore either. One of those wins shouldn't even count in 2012 vs the Vikings.

[woodbuck27]

.....edited...... Rodgers is now 6-5 in the playoffs. This is his record during his prime years. He will be 32 next December so he's not exactly young anymore either. ** One of those wins shouldn't even count in 2012 vs the Vikings.

** Joe Webb ?

[mgordo]

Here is the issue I have with this.... Did you see Patriot receivers or TEs drop Brady's 3rd and 15, 3rd and 9, or 3rd and 6 on a few of the 4th quarter drives?? No... It always seems that all Patriots players understand the importance of big moments and they make the plays. If this was the Packers, someone would have dropped a pass to kill a drive, AKA 3rd and 4... Quarless. or it would have been Davante or someone else like Finley last year. Somehow Hoody always has his guys step up in big moments, like the rookie Butler, it comes down to coaching and getting these guys ready. We're good but not great.

[pbmax]

Not at all. Does it mean they are better quarterbacks? Absolutely not. But it's dumbfounding to me that some of you guys think that a quarterback having a bad record in close games as a starter is irrelevant, or some cliched misrepresentation. He underperforms in late game situations in tight games. And yes I am designating the term underperforming. If Jay Cutler has more than double late game comeback drives than you I will say you are underperforming in that area.

Dig a little deeper and you will find some research on how many times Rodgers' has led a 4th Quarter comeback and then lost the game due to defense or Special Team errors.

[pbmax]

How could **Peyton Manning be considered as a superior QB to Tom Brady?

The NFL is ultimately about the top teams and playoffs; getting to and winning the Super Bowl.

In the Modern Era there are two obvious candidates for who's best. Joe Montana or Tom Brady and they never faced one another. On those two outstanding quarterbacks the debate may be focused.

Joe Montana with a 16-7 playoff record (0.696) and 4 Super Bowls that 'included back to back wins in 1988 and 1989'. Montana's four Super Bowl wins cover a 9 year span.

Tom Brady is just getting better and has a sensational 21 - 8 playoff record and also 4 Super Bowls (0.724) and that included back to back Super Bowl wins 2003 and 2004. The 21 wins in the playoffs is an NFL best. Brady's four Super Bowl wins cover an incredible 14 years and he wants more.

If your going to add one or two more to thicken the debate:

Bart Starr's playoff performance (9-1 and 2 Super Bowls) is obviously impressive.

People seem to somehow ignore Terry Bradshaw ...14 - 5 and 4 Super Bowls in just 6 seasons 1974-79.

Troy Aikman and a 11-4 playoff record and 3 Super Bowl rings in just four season.

How about John Elway and all his comeback wins and 14-7 in the playoff's and 2 Super Bowls?

** Peyton Manning is THE RECORD MAN. When it comes to clutch and performance in the real time. He's not going to be in the conversation.

All small sample sizes. And I think indicative of better teams having more success in the post-season. Much easier for the better QB with the weaker team to win in the regular season.

Now how this applies to the Packers is the interesting question. Prior to last year's 49er playoff game, it seemed to come down to terrible defense coupled with a terrible injury plague. The offense was not as prolific as it was facing much better Defenses, but it produced.

Last year though the D was playing better than the O versus the 49ers. However, the Packers struggle versus that D and it didn't help that Rodgers had just returned from injury.

This year would have been the best test of the team since 2011, as they shored up the defense and everyone was healthy. Except for the QB.

[pbmax]

Perhaps as his career progresses, he'll get better at blocking out the emotions of the moment and do a better job of getting into Flow, when the playoffs roll around. Again, this is not to say he's not already awesome. Just an improvement theory.

Flow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29

I'll buy all this mumbo jumbo mind-reading if you can successfully explain how the expert at stress handling Tom Brady suddenly was a puddle of mental goo in two Super Bowls with the Giants D.

[mraynrand]

Funny, when I googled 4th quarter comeback percentages quarterbacks the VERY first article that comes is "Aaron Rodgers Mr. Irrelevant in the 4th quarter"

When I google Aaron Rodgers not clutch An espn article, a sporting news article,(among others) come up regarding the subject. I am kinda lazy so I'm not digging super deep but after the Cincy loss last season A-Rod was 5 out of 29 when he had the ball in the 4th quarter with the Packers trailing by a score or less. The Miami game and the Dallas game were great, but unfortunately those games seem to be the exception. Tony Romo had 5 4th quarter comebacks in the 2012 season alone. Again I just thought this was common knowledge, being mathematical and all.

OK, but that has nothing to do with: "A-Rod's lack of clutch, signature moments are obvious to people who analyze qb play."

Again, cite some people of name and note, who analyze QB play and see what they say about Rodgers' "lack of clutch, signature moments."

[yetisnowman]

OK, but that has nothing to do with: "A-Rod's lack of clutch, signature moments are obvious to people who analyze qb play."

Again, cite some people of name and note, who analyze QB play and see what they say about Rodgers' "lack of clutch, signature moments."

If writers at espn and sporting news aren't enough, cowherd,dilfer, stephen a, bayless, locally bob mcginn....just off the top of my head. I don't have specific quotes at the moment but i recall it being mentioned. I gave you the math. Google. It is a known concept, not a figment of my imagination. Are you arguing that by NFL standards he has been good in those spots? He hasn't. I kinda feel sorry for some of you guys. It really is denial at this point. He is not the only factor, the quarterback is a huge factor whenever a team fails or succeeds.

[th87]

I'll buy all this mumbo jumbo mind-reading if you can successfully explain how the expert at stress handling Tom Brady suddenly was a puddle of mental goo in two Super Bowls with the Giants D.

My previous post discusses how Brady folds like a cheap tent if he takes hits and has to move around. His second interception the other day occurred right after he took a big hit and started to get happy feet (believe it or not, I predicted it coming).

In any case, nobody is perfect at this.

[mraynrand]

If writers at espn and sporting news aren't enough, cowherd,dilfer, stephen a, bayless, locally bob mcginn....just off the top of my head. I don't have specific quotes at the moment but i recall it being mentioned. I gave you the math. Google. It is a known concept, not a figment of my imagination. Are you arguing that by NFL standards he has been good in those spots? He hasn't. I kinda feel sorry for some of you guys. It really is denial at this point. He is not the only factor, the quarterback is a huge factor whenever a team fails or succeeds.

Nice straw men. You keep 'winning' these against people and arguments that are pure figments of your imagination. most of the analysis here of Rodgers has been sober and even-handed, looking for the truth - except it seems on your side. Plus, a lot of this has been discus here. I suggest you follow those leads PBmax suggested. How many late leads or ties engineered by a late Rodgers drive were given up by defense or special teams? (Hint, there was one in the last game).

Next, and again: Who are your analysts? If it's some ESPN article, who wrote it? Where's the link? Who of any note was cited, or was it just an ESPN Bob McGinn who wrote it? Did the same guy who wrote it vote for Rodgers for MVP?

[th87]

If writers at espn and sporting news aren't enough, cowherd,dilfer, stephen a, bayless, locally bob mcginn....just off the top of my head. I don't have specific quotes at the moment but i recall it being mentioned. I gave you the math. Google. It is a known concept, not a figment of my imagination. Are you arguing that by NFL standards he has been good in those spots? He hasn't. I kinda feel sorry for some of you guys. It really is denial at this point. He is not the only factor, the quarterback is a huge factor whenever a team fails or succeeds.

I hear you, but those guys are idiots. Simply citing his 4th quarter comeback numbers ignores context.

The truth is in the middle - Rodgers has suffered from terrible luck early in his career, and some losses you can blame him for. But he's been much more successful in his late game comebacks as of late.

[Pugger]

Nice straw men. You keep 'winning' these against people and arguments that are pure figments of your imagination. most of the analysis here of Rodgers has been sober and even-handed, looking for the truth - except it seems on your side. Plus, a lot of this has been discus here. I suggest you follow those leads PBmax suggested. How many late leads or ties engineered by a late Rodgers drive were given up by defense or special teams? (Hint, there was one in the last game).

Next, and again: Who are your analysts? If it's some ESPN article, who wrote it? Where's the link? Who of any note was cited, or was it just an ESPN Bob McGinn who wrote it? Did the same guy who wrote it vote for Rodgers for MVP?

Right. In the last game in Seattle Rodgers did orchestrate a game tying drive late in the 4th but never saw the ball again in OT. Is a game like this included in the list of those where AR had a failed come back?

[th87]

Right. In the last game in Seattle Rodgers did orchestrate a game tying drive late in the 4th but never saw the ball again in OT. Is a game like this included in the list of those where AR had a failed come back?

This is why I hate using numbers to analyze these things. So imperfect.

However, while it was a good effort to get to FG range, I hated the lack of urgency once we got there. Rodgers seemed to get "safe".

[yetisnowman]

Nice straw men. You keep 'winning' these against people and arguments that are pure figments of your imagination. most of the analysis here of Rodgers has been sober and even-handed, looking for the truth - except it seems on your side. Plus, a lot of this has been discus here. I suggest you follow those leads PBmax suggested. How many late leads or ties engineered by a late Rodgers drive were given up by defense or special teams? (Hint, there was one in the last game).

Next, and again: Who are your analysts? If it's some ESPN article, who wrote it? Where's the link? Who of any note was cited, or was it just an ESPN Bob McGinn who wrote it? Did the same guy who wrote it vote for Rodgers for MVP?

I can't link anything with my phone at the moment plus i am not savvy tech wise. I will get back to you. I am not sure why i have to walk you through it. Can't you google stats and articles? My perception is that Aaron isn't very good late in close games and the numbers bear that out. Please don't trot out the NFCCG as an example of anything. The ineptitude of the offense was the only reason that game was even in question. I really don't think that scenario has happened much at all. We are trailing late in the 4th aaron takes the lead then we lose it again? The dude has to play better. More clutch for sure. And clutchness only doesn't exist to people validating someone has limited amounts of it