OLD ISSUE: REBUILDING?

[Packnut]

TT

Let me ask you this: if Wolf is the one bright spot in Harlan's tenure and he's a great talent evaluator, then what leads you to believe that Wolf's faith in TT's talent is misplaced? This is not the 80's (thank God) and the league doesn't run the same way as it did then.

Zig,

I'm not packnut, however, I'm going to "give it the old school try"... First off, I rather enjoyed the 80's, with the exception of Packer football, so lay off on us "old guys".

Second, Wolf had nothing but praise for Mike Sherman too, and to a lot of people here (I am not one of them), they think Sherman is the Anti-Christ.

I, like pacnut, don't want to return to the 80's with regard to football, however, I do think it is inevitable but to rebuild once in a while. We had a 14 year run. That's a LONG time. Credit goes to Holmgren, Wolf, AND Sherman. Not many teams can stay viable that long.

I have not given up on TT at this point, it is way too early, however, he hasn't quite got the focus on the OL & DL that Mike Sherman had. Sherman always had good lines, because it was all he really cared about. His success on the DL was not what it was on the OL, but you can't say he didn't try.

TT seems in NO HURRY to build anything. While the long term focus is a very good thing, typically, it is sad to see Favre "ushered" out of the spotlight. There is no focus to "build quickly". I guess some fans could find that frustrating.

I do think, however, TT has been a bit disingenuous with the "we're not rebuilding" comments. It hasn't won him any accolades with me, that's for sure.

You answered it better than i could have. Your right, the 80's were ok except for football. LOL!

[RashanGary]

It's going to take a little time. The Packers are starting over from scratch. Thompson has a long record of being around successfull drafts. He has been a big part of the construction of more than one Super Bowl level franchise. He speaks of seeing the big picture, understanding value from each draft pick as opposed to taking lesser players for need. He also appears to have a sound, NE like approach to cap management.

He scrapped Sherman and all of his players and started over. It's going to take at least another rough year. Probably not as rough as last year, but rough.

I didn't like the Woodson signing from day one and I didn't like Wahle leaving. Other than that, he's done a darn good job and the area where he is strongest, the draft, won't start to pay off untill a couple years down the road. It's all about patients unless your Brett Favre and your 37 year old ankles won't make it that far.

[MJZiggy]

RG, let me clarify. The "thank God" of my previous post was a reference specifically to football only. The 80's were an interesting time in my life. In case you've forgotten, I am not the youngest member here either

[Tony Oday]

I think we have already seen the cycle of football teams in a microcosm in the last 14 years here. We started building a solid corp of young players and key FA aquisitions that panned out. The young guys grew, and grew and came into their own in the mid 90's. Played along time at a high level and then after the debacle of the 4th and 26 it was over. The window had shut. The backloaded contracts caught up to the team and we needed an infusion of talent to build around again. That is where we are now. We will go into next year with another 35 million to spend on rookies and FA.

Think about this: Favre returns next year, Jennings keeps progressing, Driver stay solid, the offensive line gels because they have had a year of tough knocks, the defense matures with Hawk learning the NFL game, Hodge supplanting Barnett after Barnett gets a nice contract and is moved outside, the secondary gels as a team with three stud CB and three stud Safties. Thats what is building right now.

Well what we lack here is on the defensive line a third WR and RB. RB we have a young stable that is more of a running back by comitte which I HATE and the D line cant get a pass rush with 4 guys but follow me on this:

RB that is a priority and we draft accordingly. Get a nice RB taht shares the load for a year with Green on his way to eclipse Green 10 games deep into the season with a tough new fullback Gado. Boom nice backfield that can play ala mid 90's Packers with Bennett and Levens.

WR-Driver and Jennings LOCK IT UP! and are a solid 1,2 combo. Draft in the second round or pick up a nice FA at WR ala Andre Rison. T.O. anyone? A guy that has a checkered past looking to regain NFL glory and a ring. Then we have three good WR.

DL-Pickett is the fat boy that Brown was. Jenkins is the santana Dotson slimmer but can get a pass rush. KGB is Sean Jones, not elite but solid enough to beat 1v1 coverage and then signing a STUD DE...oh yeah there is one available next year...FREENEY!

TT log in under your alias here and look at the plan I have jsut mapped out and follow it please

[RashanGary]

I liked the first paragraph Tony Oday. I don't think you can make a direct plan. You don't know who's going to be there with their 1st round pick. It coudl just happen to be a super high value RB who starts and makes a difference in year 1. It could be a DE who we don't need as much, but could help a whole hell of alot at rushing the passer and fatigue. You can't force the draft and for that matter, you can't force FA. It's all about value and patients. When value arises, grab it, if it's not there, wait. When you wait, you lose in the short term but in a cause and effect world, those decisions pay off in the long run or with the big picture in mind.

Just a bunch of good solid draft picks and a successfull off season without bad contracts would make me happy. Do I know what position? Not really, but I think Thompson has the ability to make the right ones and be patient enough not to make the bad ones.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

I didn't like the Woodson signing from day one and I didn't like Wahle leaving. Other than that, he's done a darn good job and the area where he is strongest, the draft, won't start to pay off untill a couple years down the road. It's all about patients unless your Brett Favre and your 37 year old ankles won't make it that far.

I did like the Woodson signing when it first happen because as with all fans I get incited when I think of this team competing again. However, now that I look back it seems that to much was invested in Woodson and it kind of contradicts what TT is all about. As for Whale. I really hated seeing him leave. I had no problem with Marco, because of age/ injury's, but Whale was only 28 and was in his prime.

And as for kampman, I have said before that we paid to much for him. He is a team player and a hard worker and I love guys like that, but 5 mil a year is way to much. He has never shown to be worth 5 mil IMO. I would have much rather paid walker and lost kampman. And I am almost certain we would be a hell of a lot better team with Walker instead.

[Fritz]

I'm not sure how anybody can really rip into TT after only two drafts. The vast majority of criticism I've read maintains that we should have signed Mike Wahle. But at the time he was becoming a free agent, most posters on the forums I read, and most articles in the JSO and Press-
Gazette maintained that Wahle would be cost prohibitive and that besides he was not enamoured of Sherman, who was still coach at the time. Finally, when Carolina made the offer it was clear he would be moving to tackle, which is the higher-paid position. The general consensus was that Wahle wasn't affordable and didn't really want to come back anyway.

So now we get this simplistic revisionist history that Ted should have signed Wahle. And it's too soon to say that TT's offensive line picks are busts. As others have noted, for the first two years of Wahle's career - a supplemental pick costing the Pack a second rounder - he was considered a bust. Hell, Rivera didn't play at all the first year.

In his three drafts, whose players are now in their third, fourth, and fifth years (prime years), Mike Sherman contributed one starting lineman - Scott Wells.

I have the same complaint about those b---ing about the Woodson signing. Most people - not all but most - gushed about the signing and said it was about time TT spent some of that cap money. Suddenly after one pre-season game people are jumping TT for the signing. So did you want TT to spend the cap money to replace the player we love to hate (Carroll) or not?

Yes, it's too bad that Favre is going out this way. And it's too bad for Hendu, too. But while TT has made some mistakes, this whole panic mode and let's- fire- Ted thing seems crazy to me.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

While pionting what we think he did wrong, he has done a lot of good things.

kept Green
Signed Pickett
Some how found Gado
Resigned Driver
Didn't sign Marco


Drafted:

Hawk
Jennings
Murphy
Coillins
Hodge
Moll, spitz, colledge (sure over time one well be good)
A-rod



So far his good out weighs he bad. His only bad moves are probably:

Walker
Maybe Woodson, if Woodson shows he not worth 10 mil
Over paid on kampman
Didn't fight hard to keep Whale(maybe it was impossible, none of us really know anyway)

[Astonishment]

Re: TT

Astonishment- see this is where I have a problem with TT's priorities and his understanding of football. I will admit that the Wahle thing sticks in my gut. He was'nt a priority and there was no money for him but there was for Kampman? At this point, who would have had more value to the team?

The cap space could have been worked out with Wahle contrary to what anyone says. This guy was one of the top 3 at his position and TT got NOTHING for him. I dis-agree that he was'nt worth the money. Why did Green have the best short yardage stats a few yrs back? Because running behind Mike was MONEY! Wahle was worth every penny he got, just ask the Panthers RB's.

TT should have backloaded a contract with guarenteed money. The signing bonus could have been structured to fit the cap space by offering him more in the 2nd year. We do have 8 mill sitting here don't we?

I definitely understand what you are saying, and I think there is simply a philosophy difference.

The difference in Wahle not getting signed and Kampman getting signed is timing and position. Could they have fit Wahl in through some funny numbers, yes, but his position should not merit what he wanted and got. I know we disagree on this point, and we do because I believe that those holes were open for Green due to the entirety of the line, not one or two individual players (much like two horses can pull more together than they can by themselves combined). The money that Wahl got would have been very misplaced on a team that was so talent starved. Sticking 8 million a year at the guard position would be being a poor steward as a gm (IMO). That money is needed for all the other positions that this team needs to improve on, and I believe it will be used on more valuable positions than just guard. The offensive line needs to be built on the idea that the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and paying Wahl that kind of money on this team is contrary to that philosophy.

Carolina on the other hand was in a position of luxury. They had a talent surplus on their team already and could afford to give a guard that kind of money with out hurting the future.

As for back loading contracts - it always comes back to hurt a team in the long run (San Fran, Washington, Dallas), and this team was already in need of an overhaul. It is like someone who keeps re-financing their home, eventually they will have spent all the money they gained and be in more dept than they previously were...and the housing market drops, at that point they are screwed. IMO that is a very poor philosophy. Personally I go with how the Vikings have financially approached FA. With your cap room you front load your contracts, so you are either on the better side of a players cap hit, or if the player's performance has diminished you’re not locked in.

As for the current cap space I have indirectly addressed that. In short that money is needed to improve the overall talent base, not just one position - especially a position that doesn't demand that kind of money. It will be used in the future for either keeping our young talent or adding a FA who will improve the Packers in positions they otherwise could not improve. The offensive line should improve through the talent they have (now this is where you can question TT). If this talent doesn't reach it's perceived potential TT will than be on the chopping block - because he got the wrong players, but not because he went about it the wrong way!!! You always want to error on the side of getting rid of a player to early rather than to late.

[Astonishment]

Can someone tell me why my quoted portions are showning up the way they are? Thanks in advance.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

Does anyone know the exact deal Whale signed and how much he's making this year?

[Astonishment]

His deal was 28.5 million over 5 years, with 11.5 million in first year signing bonus'.

If the Packers kept him his cap hit that year would have been 11 million.

I am going to look to see if I can find a yearly break down.

[TOP HAT]

DEBATE: WELL WRITTEN

My top hat is off to the packer rats...excellent discussion in this forum topic about what is really going on and the timeline.

top hat

[MJZiggy]

Wow, I figured something out about computers. (those who know me will be astonished no pun intended)

Astonishment, there is a space after the quote command. If you go right after [quote=packnut] , you will see it there.

[Packnut]

His deal was 28.5 million over 5 years, with 11.5 million in first year signing bonus'.

If the Packers kept him his cap hit that year would have been 11 million.

I am going to look to see if I can find a yearly break down.

Not if they would have back-loaded the 2nd and 3rd year. My point still is we have the money. Re-signing him would not have made a financial difference to this team. Take a look at our roster. Where are we gonna spend the money? It's not like we have any blue chip players who are gonna break the bank. And please don't anyone tell me we need it for FA's next season. TT has made his opinion very clear and IF Woodson bombs out, TT will not make another FA move.

Look, I understand it's in the past and can't be changed. All I'm saying is TT's in-ability to not even attempt to sign Wahle or Walker says a lot about his philosophy. He has to be held accountable for the mistakes he's made.