OLD ISSUE: REBUILDING?

[Astonishment]

Alright here is the best I can figure with info from kffl
signing bonus - 11.5 two-tiered signing bonus

2005-
base salary $1 million
cap number $2.7 million

2006
base salary $2 million
cap number $3.95 million**

2007
base salary $2 million
cap number $4.29 million**

2008
base salary $3 million
cap number $5.73 million**

2009
base salary $3 million
cap number $6.33 million**

(** - base off of $2.7 million first year cap hit with two tiered signing bonus of assumed $5 million evenly spread, and $6.5 million with 135% annual increase. does not include any additional roster or performance bonuses)

I could only find scattered info, but from most of the roster structures I have seen leaked this is a relatively common structure. I could not find the allowable % of deferment of the signing bonus under the new agreement, so this number may be off as well as how exactly the two tiers of the signing bonus were spread. This is definitely not the actual cap numbers, but it should give an idea to those curious. Based of the reported value of the deal there is still 5.5 million unaccounted for which is probably accounted for in roster or signing bonuses'. I have seen that Wahle’s cap number this year is higher than what I show, but I am unable to find anything indicating what his cap number is this year. He also restructured his deal this year to save some cap for the Panthers. I will keep looking.

[pbmax]

Re: TT

TT should have backloaded a contract with guarenteed money. The signing bonus could have been structured to fit the cap space by offering him more in the 2nd year. We do have 8 mill sitting here don't we?

This is exactly the reverse logic that puts teams in a cap bind. Backloading contracts only works for so long and then you take the hit.

Wahle was on his third contract and wasn't going to take anything other than big money up front. And if I was offering advice, I would agree he shouldn't.

You couldn't have given him a Redskin's special with most of the bonus money really being money he would never see, to keep the cap hit manageable. It would have been a cap eater.

And remember exactly what happened to the teams that signed Wahle, Riveria and Logan Mankins. None went to the Super Bowl. And the Vikings won't with Hutchinson.

Wahle would have made the current team slightly better while eating the cap space that might be used to find truly special players, or a mix of solid veterans making modest salaries.

Is your goal to be 8-8? Or to find the talent to be a Super Bowl contender?

Wahle and Riveria together weren't going to make this team successful in the playoffs.

[Astonishment]

His deal was 28.5 million over 5 years, with 11.5 million in first year signing bonus'.

If the Packers kept him his cap hit that year would have been 11 million.

I am going to look to see if I can find a yearly break down.

Not if they would have back-loaded the 2nd and 3rd year. My point still is we have the money. Re-signing him would not have made a financial difference to this team. Take a look at our roster. Where are we gonna spend the money? It's not like we have any blue chip players who are gonna break the bank. And please don't anyone tell me we need it for FA's next season. TT has made his opinion very clear and IF Woodson bombs out, TT will not make another FA move.

Look, I understand it's in the past and can't be changed. All I'm saying is TT's in-ability to not even attempt to sign Wahle or Walker says a lot about his philosophy. He has to be held accountable for the mistakes he's made.

We will have to agree to disagree on wether or not we should have signed Wahle, but I am in complete agreement with you on Walker.

[Astonishment]

[quote="MJZiggy"]Wow, I figured something out about computers. (those who know me will be astonished no pun intended)

Astonishment, there is a space after the quote command. If you go right after

, you will see it there.

Iactually added that space in to see if it would fix the problem, but it didn't. So it still showed up that way without the space, but I will edit it back.

[Astonishment]

I was able to find this about wahle's contract:
"Panthers | Wahle's contract restructured
Sat, 11 Mar 2006 05:55:32 -0800

Pat Yasinskas, of the Charlotte Observer, reports the Carolina Panthers have restructured the contract of OG Mike Wahle. His 2006 salary cap number dropped from $7.3 million to $4.7 million."

so now we know Wahles 1st year cap hit was 2.7 million and this years was 7.3 million which would be a difference of 3.35 million from what I had figured, and would account for all of the 28.5 million reported in the contract except fot 2.15 million.

For the record 7.3 is INSAIN money for a guard!!!

[pbmax]

On Wahle's restructure:

The Panthers restructured the contracts for defensive end Julius Peppers, guard Mike Wahle, cornerback Ken Lucas and safety Mike Minter.

By converting base salary into bonus money that will be pro-rated over the life of the contract, the Panthers took Peppers' $14.8 million cap figure to $11.3 million. Minter's dropped from $3.6 million to $2.1 million, Wahle's from $7.3 million to $4.7 million, and Lucas' from $8.78 million to $3.98 million.

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/sports/football/nfl/carolina_panthers/14073050.htm?BlogThisQuoting=bq

[MJZiggy]

[quote=Astonishment]

Wow, I figured something out about computers. (those who know me will be astonished no pun intended)

Astonishment, there is a space after the quote command. If you go right after

, you will see it there.

Iactually added that space in to see if it would fix the problem, but it didn't. So it still showed up that way without the space, but I will edit it back.

Sorry, when I quoted your quote and previewed it, it came up right. Now it's beyond me. Are you using the quote button or cutting and pasting? It's somehow done right because I didn't change it when I quoted you quoting me.

[Astonishment]

[quote=MJZiggy]

Wow, I figured something out about computers. (those who know me will be astonished no pun intended)

Astonishment, there is a space after the quote command. If you go right after

, you will see it there.

Iactually added that space in to see if it would fix the problem, but it didn't. So it still showed up that way without the space, but I will edit it back.

Sorry, when I quoted your quote and previewed it, it came up right. Now it's beyond me. Are you using the quote button or cutting and pasting? It's somehow done right because I didn't change it when I quoted you quoting me.

I'm just using the quote button, but I just changed some of my settings maybe this will work.

<edit> sweet it worked

[Fritz]

"Look, I understand it's in the past and can't be changed. All I'm saying is TT's in-ability to not even attempt to sign Wahle or Walker says a lot about his philosophy. He has to be held accountable for the mistakes he's made."

Packnut, it is possible that TT knew more about Wahle's situation than was let on in public. As I wrote, there were hints that Wahle just flat out wanted to leave, for a couple of reasons. One was Sherman, and two was that he got the chance to play tackle, a higher-pay higher-status position. So we don't know whether it was even possible to sign the guy, no matter what. Remember the Pack outbid Indy for Vinatieri but it didn't matter.

And how do you want to hold TT accountable after two drafts and one season? Fire him? A Gm gets two drafts and one season?

Also, I find it interesting for those folks who wanted the sign-Wahle-no-matter-what-it-costs that Carolina, after only one season, has had to re-structure Wahle's contract. That was one huge contract. Now they'll be taking a cap hit on that contract when Mike Wahle is collecting social security.

[Guiness]

Did Whale end up playing tackle or guard? I thought when all was said and done, he had to play guard due to injuries to other members of the OL.

Carolina's depth chart shows him as the starting left guard, and not even listed as a backup tackle.

[Guiness]

Astonishment - what did you do to fix the quoting? I couldn't see anything wrong with the text of your message.

[Rastak]

Gaurd I think...USA today had an interesting article on gaurds.......
kind of long but I enjoyed it....

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2006-08-30-guards-cover_x.htm

On guard: Talents like Hutchinson, Faneca redefining the position

By Jim Corbett, USA TODAY
MANKATO, Minn. — Steve Hutchinson might as well have been a 6-5, 313-pound ghost.
Seattle Seahawks coach Mike Holmgren walked right past his former left guard as if the Minnesota Vikings' freshly minted, $49 million man didn't exist.

The chilly reception occurred at a mutual friend's wedding this spring.

The thing is, Hutchinson's exit from the Seahawks could have been avoided.

That's the bottom line Holmgren hasn't completely moved on from. Which is how Holmgren came to be one of the few NFL men during the last five years to bull-rush straight past Hutchinson, arguably the game's premier guard along with Pittsburgh Steelers five-time Pro Bowler Alan Faneca. Hutchinson and Faneca were among the dominant reasons why Seattle and Pittsburgh met in Super Bowl XL.

After pouring heart and soul into Holmgren's Seahawks program for five seasons, Hutchinson was caught off-guard by his frosted former coach.

"I put my hand out to shake Mike's hand at the wedding, and he went right by me and didn't even look at me," Hutchinson says at the conclusion of a recent Vikings training camp practice. "He went up to my wife, Landyn, and gave her a hug. He was joking around."

He was and he wasn't. Holmgren was still steamed by everything that shouldn't have transpired before resulting in Hutchinson's departure after five productive years, including three consecutive Pro Bowl seasons. Hutchinson teamed with Seattle's all-world left tackle, Walter Jones, to form arguably the best left side in football and helped pave the way for Shaun Alexander's 27-touchdown, 1,880-yard, league MVP season.

"Steve came out for a wedding for our head equipment guy, Art Kennedy," Holmgren says. "He came up to shake my hand, and I wouldn't talk to him. I went and hugged his wife."

It was a wedding that had the feel of a divorce.

"By the end of the evening, we sat down and talked," Holmgren said. "I wish him the best. It's just too bad he's not with us. I miss him."

Holmgren arrived at the Indianapolis scouting combine in late February convinced Hutchinson would be designated the team's franchise player. Hutchinson says management's lack of serious dialogue combined with the less-appealing transitional designation pushed him away.

"For Mike to say he's still upset about the whole transaction, I am, too, with the way the whole thing was handled," Hutchinson says.

Holmgren was stripped of his general manager duties after the 2004 season and remained as head coach following the ouster of former president of football operations Bob Whitsitt. Hutchinson believes Holmgren's demotion played a factor in his departure.

Hutchinson was certain he would be franchised after watching as Seattle awarded new deals to Jones and quarterback Matt Hasselbeck following the 2004 season, then Alexander this offseason. The tag would have guaranteed a one-year, $6,983,000 deal, the average of the top-five highest-paid offensive linemen last season, and required two first-round picks as compensation from any team that wanted him.

When Seattle instead slapped the $6,391,000 transition tag on him, meaning the Seahawks wouldn't receive compensation if they declined to match an offer, Hutchinson felt it was a slap in the face.

"Seattle bewildered me with the transition tag," Hutchinson says. "I can understand why Mike is upset, and I understand Mike Holmgren isn't the GM there anymore.

"But they transitioned me. And when free agency started, the Vikings just jumped way ahead and showed they wanted me."

Seahawks President Tim Ruskell and vice president of football administration Mike Reinfeldt gambled $592,000, the savings between the transition and franchise tag, that no team would offer to pay nearly $7 million a year on a guard. They gambled wrong.

Aided by a $17 million increase that pushed each team's salary cap to $102.5 million after a March collective bargaining agreement extension, the Vikings designed a shrewd, seven-year $49 million offer sheet laced with a "poison pill." The prohibitive provision stipulated that if Hutchinson, 28, was not the highest-paid offensive lineman at the time he signed the offer sheet, the entire $49 million contract would be guaranteed. In Hutchinson's mind, Seattle had blown its chance.

Seattle contested the clause and even had Jones restructure his deal so Hutchinson averaged more on its books. Still, a league arbitrator ruled for Minnesota. The Seahawks balked at matching the offer, and Hutchinson turned purple. That is, he officially became a Viking, filling Minnesota's glaring left guard pothole.

"Walter Jones and Matt Hasselbeck were both on the front burner after the 2004 season and I had a year left," Hutchinson says. "When it came down to it last February, I was actually driving around looking for property in Seattle, looking for lots to build a house, thinking that if they don't get a deal done, I'm at least getting franchised and going to be there for another six, seven years when they hammer out a long-term deal."

Could Hutchinson's exit be the first fissure in a Seattle Super Bowl hangover? Holmgren, Hasselbeck and others think they're well-stocked at the position. But the season will tell the tale.

"It's a sore subject on both sides," Hutchinson says. "I'm upset because I left a brotherhood, some guys and coaches I spent five years with.

"I still think Mike's chapped about it and hasn't moved on. And I'm upset like that, too. There's some personnel decisions made there I didn't agree with.

"Did it work out for me and my family? Absolutely."

Until Hutchinson elevated one of pro football's Rodney Dangerfield positions to left tackle financial portfolio, only one guard, ex-Dallas Cowboy and current San Francisco 49er Larry Allen, made more than $6 million a season.

"It just shows you don't have to be one of these guys to get paid," Faneca says, pointing as left tackle Marvel Smith walks by at the team's St. Vincent College training camp in Latrobe, Pa.

There are seven modern-era guards in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, including NFL Players Association executive director and former Oakland Raider Gene Upshaw, former Houston Oiler Mike Munchak, for Miami Dolphin Larry Little and New England Patriots great John Hannah. Guards have received glory before but have rarely been shown the money.

"I mean, my man hit it at the right time, huh?" Faneca says of Hutchinson's $49 million payday in sync with a $17 million-per-team salary-cap increase. "He was just off his first deal and right into the new labor deal. His timing was awesome."

Hutchinson and Faneca were bullish catalysts for last year's third- and fifth-ranked run games, respectively. Hutchinson and Faneca play the game alike. In addition to being supersized athletes, they bring that every-down tenacity and are known for playing with a nasty streak. Hutchinson is a better drive blocker. Faneca might be more renowned for his pulling agility. Both are punishing finishers who play with a defensive player's aggressiveness. Only one player got more all-pro votes at the position last season than Faneca. That was Hutchinson, who led all guards with 40 votes. Faneca and the Kansas City Chiefs' Brian Waters each received 18 votes.

Faneca received one vote for Super Bowl MVP for his crushing block on Seattle linebacker LeRoy Hill that sprung Willie Parker on his Super Bowl-record 75-yard touchdown. The second play of the second half, called "Counter 34 Pike," gave the Steelers a 14-3 lead. They never looked back en route to a 21-10 win at Detroit's Ford Field.

"History? Oh, it made me chuckle at first," Faneca says of that MVP vote. "It's nice. I always said it was probably some offensive lineman that gave me the vote."

Quite an honor for a position that was devalued only three years ago when the Green Bay Packers under then-coach Mike Sherman opted to let both veteran starting guards, Mike Wahle and Marco Rivera, sign with other teams (the Carolina Panthers and Cowboys) in free agency. The Packers operated on the long-held premise that you don't pay guards, you draft and coach up younger ones. Green Bay's 4-12 free fall last season seemed to contradict that Buckingham Palace rotational approach to guards.

"Just offensive line play in general, a lot of people get overlooked," Faneca says. "We don't touch the ball. We're not in that glamour position. A casual fan is not a fan of offensive-line play. A more serious fan of football can appreciate what we do and the importance of us doing our job, so that all the glamour positions can do what they do."

The Steelers no longer have "The Bus," Jerome Bettis, their beloved, bruising running back now working as an NBC studio analyst. But they still have their 6-5, 307-pound, red-haired "Road Grader." Faneca is the fiery face of the Steelers' bedrock counter play.

Pittsburgh's 1998 first-round pick from LSU plays guard with linebacker fire. There's good reason: He started out in the game as a linebacker.

What few Steelers fans know is that Faneca has taken seizure medication since 15. He has become a symbol of possibility for 2.7 million Americans with epilepsy and works with the Epilepsy Foundation to raise awareness about the often-stigmatized condition.

"Alan is the Jerome Bettis of our line of scrimmage," Super Bowl XL MVP Hines Ward says. "He just leads by example. He's a great model for younger guys. You want to be a true all-pro because of the way Alan plays."

As much as they have done to protect quarterbacks Ben Roethlisberger and Hasselbeck, Faneca and Hutchinson share the vision of the runners who draft in their slipstreams, waiting for them to bulldoze cutback lanes.

"Guard is really the position that defines your run game, and having a dominant run game goes hand in hand with having strong guards," Ward says. "Shaun Alexander wouldn't have had the year he had without Steve Hutchinson, and Willie Parker wouldn't have helped us win a Super Bowl without Alan Faneca kicking out like he does, blasting people off the ball.

"Hutchinson and Faneca don't get a lot of credit at that position.

"But we all know how important Faneca is to our team."

When they need the hard yards or the weather turns cold and windy, the Steelers rely more heavily on their rangy guard to plow through overaggressive defenses.

"In our offense, we require our guards to be mobile and move," Faneca says. "The counter game is big on our part. The screen plays. The way we like offensive linemen, you can be big but you still have to move.

"A lot of teams don't place the value on guards as much. They maybe find a guy, a big guy clogging up the middle, and that guy's not necessarily going to keep it up out there against a fast defensive end."

Steelers defensive coordinator Dick LeBeau changed his scheme in the second half of the Super Bowl win because Hutchinson was engulfing safety Troy Polamalu's all-out blitzes.

LeBeau adjusted by dropping Polamalu in the second half, sending free safety Chris Hope instead.

"Unless you're watching film, if you're the average fan, it's hard to see a guard in the game," Hutchinson says. "You can see tackles because they're out on the edge. But the way the game is evolving now, you've got defensive tackles who are starting to be just as athletic as ends. You've got guys that are 315 pounds that can run 4.5, 4.6 who are unbelievable agilitywise. And in a lot of blocking schemes, you're one-on-one with these guys.

"The Steelers were sending guys from everywhere against us in the Super Bowl. Defenses have changed, even since I've been in the league the last five years."

In what way?

"There's a lot more disguising, a lot more blitzing from safeties and corners," he says. "Depending on your blocking schemes, sometimes you have to pop out and take a corner coming off the edge in space, and that's hard. I'm 315 pounds, and you're going against a guy who's 190 who does a cone drill in about half a second.

"The extent of a guard's role maybe 10-15 years ago, the hardest thing he had to do was pull around the tackle and block a linebacker 5 yards downfield. Now we're going 20-30 yards downfield on a screen pass, blocking a corner."

In the early 1990s, the Steelers were the lone 3-4 defensive team.

Now at least eight teams play a 3-4 as their base scheme.

"A lot more teams play 3-4 now," Faneca says. "When I came in, it was starting to get phased out. I think for a year or two, we were the only ones doing it.

"You see a lot of guys like (the Cleveland Browns') Ted Washington, big guys that are big in the middle and command more than one person. That's kind of how the inside game has gone. You see those guys have a lot of value to teams and to defenses, to help eat up guards and centers. But the inside game, I see the combination blocks and forcing the hand of maybe losing a guard. Keeping the linebackers free has been a big concern."

Former San Francisco 49ers guard/center and Sirius Radio NFL analyst Randy Cross was a multitasking, agile blocker ahead of his time.

"I would refer to it as a dark period there from a guard technique and style standpoint," Cross says. "It was all about girth and size there for a while. Now it's a lot more about movement and motion.

"Now we actually talk about linemen functioning in space. That's one of the reasons for the proliferation of the zone-style blocking and for Kansas City's line that has been predicated on all five guys being able to get out and move. That has led this charge to valuing the offensive guard again. Guards didn't used to be as agile.

"Two other guys I look at are Kansas City's Will Shields and Brian Waters. They're maybe not as physically imposing because Hutch and Alan are freakish-sized guys. But all these guys can block you in space, on the move or inside a phone booth."

At Kansas City's River Falls, Wis., camp, Shields, a 14-year veteran who has gone to 11 consecutive Pro Bowls, has helped spring Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson to five consecutive top-five rushing seasons. Even after all those Pro Bowls, Shields isn't too proud to concede he borrows from his guard brothers, Hutchinson and Faneca.

"You sit back and watch them both," Shields says. "I try to add different things they do to my toolbox.

"You watch and see how they do different things. And a couple of days in practice, you go out and try it and see if it works for you. If you're not always working on your game and watching the other guys at your position and see what they've found out from different people, you're not going to get any better."

Right back at you, big guy.

"Just as much as I admire how well Will plays, I admire how long he's done it," Faneca says. "Being able to play with him for five years in the Pro Bowl, I think highly of him."

It helped in Hutchinson's development that his first three years dovetailed with seven-time Pro Bowl defensive tackle John Randle's final three years of a 15-year career played out in Seattle.

"On training camp mornings like this, I'd wake up and the first thing that would pop in my head was, 'I've got to go against John Randle today!' " Hutchinson says. "But it paid off because I know without a doubt I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't have the opportunity to go against him.

"You practice against John, a certain Hall of Famer, all week, and you get in the game and it seemed like slow motion."

Now Hutch and Randle are next-door, Twin Cities neighbors.

"Steve is going to do everything possible to show he's worth the money," Randle says.

"I tried to help Steve get better the way (former guard) Randall McDaniel helped me when I was with the Vikings.

"Hutch has got great technique and feet.

"Some of the younger Seahawks defensive linemen would ask me, 'What moves should I use on him?' I said, 'You better make sure it's your best move because he's going to knock you 5-10 yards off the ball.' "

Hutchinson lives in Key Largo, Fla., and is an avid fisherman.

Randle learned how avid this summer when Hutchinson asked him if he wanted to go walleye fishing at a northern Minnesota lake.

"I thought we were going to fish from 6 a.m. to 4 in the afternoon," Randle says. "Steve says, "No, we're going to fish from 4:45 in the morning to midnight. We did that for three days, catching our limit.

"Hutch was talking about movies, telling marlin fishing stories down in Florida. We had a blast."

Four-time Pro Bowl Vikings center Matt Birk and Hutchinson already have a strong foundation after they hit it off spending all those Februarys together in Hawaii.

"People always ask me, 'What about this Hutchinson guy? All the money he got?' I tell them, 'If there's one guy who's worth it, it's Steve,' " Birk says. "He is that special player.

"He comes to work to get better and to get the guys around him better, working our combo blocks to make sure we're all on the same page."

Said Holmgren at the Super Bowl:

"He is a different type of lineman. He's as hardworking a lineman as I've ever seen, and he's tremendously strong and very bright ... fabulous ability."

That's why Holmgren has yet to completely move on from losing a left guard that Minnesota prized like a left tackle.

Holmgren knows the deal. The last five Super Bowl losers have failed to make the playoffs the following year. Is the unnecessary breakup of Seattle's prolific left side of Jones and Hutchinson an early omen there could be a sixth? Alexander is the only player in league history to have scored 15 or more touchdowns in five consecutive seasons, all during Hutchinson's tenure.

"Common sense tells you that it's going to be hard replacing Hutch in Seattle, the same if you took away Alan Faneca from Pittsburgh," Cross says. "There's a lot of stuff the Seahawks are going to have to adjust to. Walter Jones will have to adjust, (center) Robbie Tobeck will have to adjust. Shaun Alexander will have to adjust. I think Hutch's loss will hurt them in the short term."

The long term?

We'll have a better idea how bitter an aftertaste a poison pill can leave Oct. 22. That's when Hutchinson's Vikings meet Holmgren's Seahawks.

Contributing: USA TODAY's Chris Colston, Jarrett Bell and Nate Davis

[MJZiggy]

Let me make sure I have the info correct on this:
TT was hired in November of 2004.
Wahle was released from his contract March 2005 or 4 months later.
Wahle reportedly wanted to test FA
Wahle reportedly did not care for Sherman
Wahle reportedly wanted the opportunity to play tackle
One reason this is all TT's fault is that he should have been resigned and upgraded by midseason
Another reason this is all TT's fault is that he couldn't pay the bonus and cut Wahle.
TT has said that not trying SOMETHING more to keep Wahle or Rivera was a mistake.

Are these correct? If so I'd really like to know how TT was supposed to have redone the deal by midseason when he wasn't hired til after that. How were we to pay him if #1 he didn't want to be here, #2 he wanted insane money and #3 he wanted to play a position that we weren't offering him? Why didn't Sherman have his contract redone in October? Could it be that they tried and he refused to redo it? TT didn't get it done, neither did Sherman and they all knew that bonus was coming. How many times do we hang a guy for something he's already admitted was a mistake? It's long over. It's done. There's nothing that can be done about it now and last I heard from the guinea pig standing behind them, the experiment is working and the new guards are playing well (and, frankly that guinea pig gets a little pissed when people outside the organization suggest that they know what's going on inside).

[Guiness]

Anyone know if the NFL is moving towards doing something about the ridiculous poison pills in Hutchison and Burleson's contracts?

There was a lot of gripping about them at the time - I wonder if it was just hot air, or if a change will be made.

[Astonishment]

Astonishment - what did you do to fix the quoting? I couldn't see anything wrong with the text of your message.

In my profile I had -

Always attach my signature:
Always allow BBCode:
Always allow HTML:

all marked as "no", I went in and changed all of them to yes and it worked (if I am correct it should be the BBCode that fixed it, but someone with more computer knowledge should be able to answer that).