Packers Release Palmer

[run pMc]

I think most teams play a lot of nickel and what is often called sub-package. It's to counter modern NFL offenses, which rely heavily on the passing game. That said, it doesn't make sense to invest a lot in ILB's unless there's an obvious stud available at that position. There have been very few of those in recent drafts. Many ILBs often end up only being 2-down players, and from a value perspective it may not make sense to invest a high round pick in one. There's also that luck-of-the-draft thing: compare A.J. Hawk with Patrick Willis.

I think the offensive schemes (hurry up, 3 WR - 1 TE - 1 RB, etc.) also make it more important to have speed, and is why thumpers are getting replaced and some teams are using safeties (ARI, Rams). You could argue Capers was doing a variation of that when Sean Richardson played instead of a LB in what I think they called Big Okie (2CBs, 3 safeties).

I wish Palmer luck -- I think he tried, and got bounced around from OLB to ILB. It would certainly signal that they are planning to make some kind of roster move with the ILBs. I don't think Bradford will make the roster, and I think TT drafts an ILB.

[wist43]

So, apparently you believe JAGs should be starting from Day One, I guess.
Why else would you have said this way back when?




and this:

[/B]


or, is it that you become an expert after the fact, like the rest of us?

I kind of talked myself into being okay with the pick... it took some doing though. I know you couldn't care less about Hawk, you just want to poke me in the eye - but leading up to that draft, I didn't want Hawk, and ultimately called him for what he was, a JAG. After we had him, I consigned myself to accept that he could at least play at the NFL level, and wouldn't be a bust for that reason. That said, taking in the totality of his play, he was a bust for where he was drafted.

Hodge was a shame. The kid could play, but his knees coming into the league were like Butkus's leaving it.

[wist43]

I value 4th round picks very highly - I don't think Ryan was worth the pick.

Everyone backs TT and extolls the virtues of Randall the Ankle Biter, but I'd have taken Anthony over him; I'd have been just fine with Bernardrick McKinney over Randall; I like Hau'oli Kikaha who was taken in the 2nd round last year - he played outside, but I think he could play inside just fine; Eric Kendricks; Jordan Hicks (played great until injury last year)...

And that's just the first 3 rounds from last year... x how many seasons??

Wist,
I agree that he has not invested heavily in ILB, I just think that saying he ignored the position is a very flawed statement. I would like to hear what other positions he doesn't care about in your opinion.
I think he places less value on it, but still definitely cares.

He ignored it by passing on LB's that were rated highly, and ultimately performed well, for staying "true to his board"...

No one can tell me that he couldn't have had a single ILB rated similarly to any other player he may have drafted at a given point in any of the last 10 drafts.

I gave some examples just from last years draft of ILB's that were worthy of being picked in the first 3 rounds, and TT passed on all of them for decent players (I would argue), but players that are no more valuable than the ILB's he passed on - capisce??

That's the point - he passed on ILB's that proved themselves to be top-level players for players that may be at about the same talent level, but certainly don't improve the team as much b/c of the obvious, i.e. there is still a gaping hole in the middle of the defense.

I didn't mind that TT went CB necessarily, but the CB I wanted was Darby, who went to the Bills and easily outperformed Randall. Darby ended up on most All-rookie teams, as did Anthony...

So it comes down to TT simply not wanting to invest in the position over other positions; or, if it's a matter of his board?? His board is flawed.

[mraynrand]

I know you're being your usual snarky ass, but the 3-4 they don't play is on the field about 10% of the time... so, that would give Ryan 10% of the snaps there. What other packages does he, or should he get PT in?? The answer is only in 2-4 nickels that are looking to play the run... what percentage of snaps is that?? Another 20-30% maybe??

And again, if he is on the field and it is a pass... he's a big liability.

Not snarky, just correcting your error - again. Yes, he's a liability in pass coverage, based on the 10-20 snaps he played with coverage responsibilities last year, as a rookie, and will be this year for another handful of plays, and assuming he won't progress, and the Packers will use him as their primary pass coverage ILB on passing downs, which they will not.

[Patler]

I kind of talked myself into being okay with the pick... it took some doing though. I know you couldn't care less about Hawk, you just want to poke me in the eye - but leading up to that draft, I didn't want Hawk, and ultimately called him for what he was, a JAG. After we had him, I consigned myself to accept that he could at least play at the NFL level, and wouldn't be a bust for that reason. That said, taking in the totality of his play, he was a bust for where he was drafted.

Hodge was a shame. The kid could play, but his knees coming into the league were like Butkus's leaving it.

Ya, lots of us are good at evaluating guys when their careers are about done.
From your posts at the time, you liked Hawk and thought he should start immediately. Hardly JAG like comments.

You assured us Rodgers would never lead the Packers to the Super Bowl, you figured Brohm would be the starter ultimately, you didn't like the pick of Nelson and hated the Walker trade. You are about as accurate as the rest of us in your predictions.

[wist43]

Ya, lots of us are good at evaluating guys when their careers are about done.
From your posts at the time, you liked Hawk and thought he should start immediately. Hardly JAG like comments.

You assured us Rodgers would never lead the Packers to the Super Bowl, you figured Brohm would be the starter ultimately, you didn't like the pick of Nelson and hated the Walker trade. You are about as accurate as the rest of us in your predictions.

Well, you win Patler - I'm far too unmotivated to take the time to go back and dig up posts...

Misrepresent all you like... it works for politicians.

[Patler]

Well, you win Patler - I'm far too unmotivated to take the time to go back and dig up posts...

Misrepresent all you like... it works for politicians.

Misrepresent? Those are your quotes about Hawk. How is that misrepresentation?

How did I misrepresent your opinion of Rodgers?

The Brohm and Rodgers picks could also be used as object lessons in Teddism... We're told Rodgers was "a steal", "too much value to pass up", blah, blah, blah - does anyone really think the guy will lead us to a SB??? Of course not.

If Rodgers stays the starter (something I seriously doubt) and Brohm rides the bench, the best we could hope for would be a trade in 3-4 years - so did we spend a 2rd rd pick this year essentially to trade it for a future 2nd or 3rd round pick. More wheel spinning than team building.

I think Brohm has a much better chance than Rodgers so I'm not viewing the day as a total loss, but the drafting of Nelson, regardless of whether he turns out to be a player or not, speaks to what I consider to be a fundamentally debilitating flaw in TT - complete and total tunnel vision with respect to each and every player, regardless of position, and without any regard to building a roster.

In the end, TT's philosophy seems to be self-torpedoing... draft the highest rated guy on your board, regardless of whether that means you have to move another good guy off your roster on the other end.

I've said this before - I think it is entirely possible that TT is a great talent evaluator, that can continually supply a franchise with good talent, but will likely never be able to build a championship team.

As forWalker, you stared a thread titled "Walker trade is final. Walker for 4 players (hate this deal) "

[wist43]

Misrepresent? Those are your quotes about Hawk. How is that misrepresentation?

How did I misrepresent your opinion of Rodgers?

I hated the Rodgers pick b/c I thought we were close enough to a title to make a push; but as we've come to learn about TT, he never makes a push. We still had Brett Favre, and I wanted to fill holes. Not much different than now... with Rodgers now only a few years away from hanging them up.

And if you'll remember, Rodgers wasn't Rodgers when we drafted him - he reinvented himself, changed his delivery, and went from having a hitch in his delivery to having one of the quickest releases in the league. Made him a completely different QB.

As for the quotes about Hawk, they misrepresent my take on him b/c I didn't want him. I wanted Hgata or Davis. I only signed off on Hawk after convincing myself that he wouldn't be a bust. As for saying that he would be a starter on day 1?? Well, duh...

As forWalker, you stared a thread titled "Walker trade is final. Walker for 4 players (hate this deal) "

And when it comes to the Walker trade - in terms of talent, yeah I hated that trade. Walker was a mega-talented WR, but of course how could we know he was also a psychopath??

One of the most important things in evaluating these players is their character and what is going on inside their head. We as armchair GMs can't possibly see that, so we have no way of knowing. Walker had something go wrong in his head... b/c that guy flamed out. He must have demonstrated some of those tendencies in the locker room and that's why TT dumped him.

Walker can be chalked up to a character bust - unless a guy is a flaming idiot like Johnny Manziel, it's tough to get a read on where a guy's head is, and what kind of locker room presence he is going to be.

[Patler]

I hated the Rodgers pick b/c I thought we were close enough to a title to make a push; but as we've come to learn about TT, he never makes a push. We still had Brett Favre, and I wanted to fill holes. Not much different than now... with Rodgers now only a few years away from hanging them up.

And if you'll remember, Rodgers wasn't Rodgers when we drafted him - he reinvented himself, changed his delivery, and went from having a hitch in his delivery to having one of the quickest releases in the league. Made him a completely different QB.

As for the quotes about Hawk, they misrepresent my take on him b/c I didn't want him. I wanted Hgata or Davis. I only signed off on Hawk after convincing myself that he wouldn't be a bust. As for saying that he would be a starter on day 1?? Well, duh...




And when it comes to the Walker trade - in terms of talent, yeah I hated that trade. Walker was a mega-talented WR, but of course how could we know he was also a psychopath??

One of the most important things in evaluating these players is their character and what is going on inside their head. We as armchair GMs can't possibly see that, so we have no way of knowing. Walker had something go wrong in his head... b/c that guy flamed out. He must have demonstrated some of those tendencies in the locker room and that's why TT dumped him.

Walker can be chalked up to a character bust - unless a guy is a flaming idiot like Johnny Manziel, it's tough to get a read on where a guy's head is, and what kind of locker room presence he is going to be.

Your comment I quoted about Rodgers not leading us to a Super Bowl wasn't when Rodgers was drafted, it was after Brohm was drafted, after Favre retired, making Rodgers the starter. This was long after his generally weak rookie season. It was after we watched the subsequent preseasons that were good, and after he played a very good game against Dallas. It was after some reporters in training camp the year before suggested that Rodgers looked better than Favre. You were backing Brohm who hadn't even set foot on an NFL field yet over Rodgers who we had watched for 3 years by then. That's fine. A lot of people really liked Brohm. I figured he would be an asset worth something in a few years. I never expected Brohm would fail completely. I liked the pick of Brohm just because it gave them two opportunities to find a replacement for Favre.

As for Walker, his odd statements and awkward holdout the year before probably sealed his fate.

[wist43]

Your comment I quoted about Rodgers not leading us to a Super Bowl wasn't when Rodgers was drafted, it was after Brohm was drafted, after Favre retired, making Rodgers the starter. This was long after his generally weak rookie season. It was after we watched the subsequent preseasons that were good, and after he played a very good game against Dallas. It was after some reporters in training camp the year before suggested that Rodgers looked better than Favre. You were backing Brohm who hadn't even set foot on an NFL field yet over Rodgers who we had watched for 3 years by then. That's fine. A lot of people really liked Brohm. I figured he would be an asset worth something in a few years. I never expected Brohm would fail completely. I liked the pick of Brohm just because it gave them two opportunities to find a replacement for Favre.

As for Walker, his odd statements and awkward holdout the year before probably sealed his fate.

I think I said that Patler said that Rodgers had three nipples... can you do some digging and find out if, in fact, Rodgers does have three nipples??

Thanks for all your hard work Patler.

[mraynrand]

Wist taking defeat with grace, LOL.

[wist43]

Wist taking defeat with grace, LOL.

Even if I shot 50%, that would still be 50% better than you and Patler put together.

[Upnorth]

And 17% better than Shaq.

Re our cb vrs ILB drafting in 2015 says to me that TT (accurately) saw that ILB could be fixed to some degree by our existing roster where as DB had some hooles appearing last off season and that we were loosing another member this off season. Worst case scenario HaHa and CM could take care of ILB, with out Randle and Rollins where would our dB situation be?
One last point, does the Montgomery pick imply to you that TT saw wr as more important than ILB last year? If so good prognostication.

[Pugger]

I still think hawk was a decent player. I expected more out of the 5th pick, but to play for 9 years isn't bad. It definitely could be worse.

A lot of folks hated Hawk because he wasn't the second coming of Brian Urlacher.

[George Cumby]

We are discussing AJ Hawk. AJ Hawk. A. J. Hawk.

Dear God we must be bored.

Good thing we don't all live on a desert island together or we'd be eating each other's young.