Official Packers vs. Raiders Game Day Thread

[texaspackerbacker]

not, not, not, and hell yeah.

[pbmax]

The Packers KNOW that Hundley just does not have the right stuff. They should have seen enough of Kizer to know he will never be the answer, either. Roll the damn dice & work intensively with Boyle.

They should have known this about Hudley, but fooled themselves. I don't know if I trust their judgement about Kizer with this short a time frame.

Boyle is too raw and has only competed against 3rd and 4th string. I would rather dump the first two and sign a vet this year while giving Boyle more time.

Boyle is the same camp story as Hundley, Callahan and Hill. He's proven nothing yet except he can succeed against sub-replacement level talent.

[texaspackerbacker]

The Packers KNOW that Hundley just does not have the right stuff. They should have seen enough of Kizer to know he will never be the answer, either. Roll the damn dice & work intensively with Boyle.

I'm tempted to agree with this - for sure about Kizer. I can't help thinking, though, that the irrational Hundley-hate in this forum is not much shared by the Packer staff or NFL people in general. Boyle certainly looked good, but against pretty low level competition.

The bottom line in all cases, both this preseason and last year is that they all were handicapped by a rotten O Line.

[pbmax]

The bottom line in all cases, both this preseason and last year is that they all were handicapped by a rotten O Line.

There are two problems with this claim.

One is that you are mainly complaining about backups now. There are definite concerns about depth here.

Two, Rodgers routinely has mountains of time to complete passes. Saying they are horrible flies in the face of all evidence of Rodger performance, He dances back there for 3+ second more than any quarterback including Wilson. No other team asks the O line to block longer.

I would agree that their performance is probably not league best by the numbers, because Rodgers can extend the play on his own at times and its not always the O line that should get the credit for those 5+ second wait times or rollouts. But Rodgers routinely gets to sit back there and wait for something to open deep.

[Joemailman]

There are two problems with this claim.

One is that you are mainly complaining about backups now. There are definite concerns about depth here.

Two, Rodgers routinely has mountains of time to complete passes. Saying they are horrible flies in the face of all evidence of Rodger performance, He dances back there for 3+ second more than any quarterback including Wilson. No other team asks the O line to block longer.

I would agree that their performance is probably not league best by the numbers, because Rodgers can extend the play on his own at times and its not always the O line that should get the credit for those 5+ second wait times or rollouts. But Rodgers routinely gets to sit back there and wait for something to open deep.

Correct. Perhaps no team in the NFL asks their OL to pass block longer than the Packers do. It's probably one reason why so many guys who play Guard for the Packers played LT in college. They're looking for pass blockers. Going hand in hand with this is McCarthy's insistence that his QB's have mobility. It's probably one reason why the Packers don't bring in an older veteran to be their backup. These types of guys are usually lacking in mobility. When MM got the HC job here, he put Rodgers through a series of agility tests to see if Rodgers had the mobility to run his offense. He quickly decided that Rodgers did.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's probably one reason why so many guys who play Guard for the Packers played LT in college. They're looking for pass blockers.

Maybe this is true. But a lot of college teams play their best lineman at LT regardless of whether it is their ideal position. I imagine lots of guards in NFL played tackle in college.

[texaspackerbacker]

There are two problems with this claim.

One is that you are mainly complaining about backups now. There are definite concerns about depth here.

Two, Rodgers routinely has mountains of time to complete passes. Saying they are horrible flies in the face of all evidence of Rodger performance, He dances back there for 3+ second more than any quarterback including Wilson. No other team asks the O line to block longer.

I would agree that their performance is probably not league best by the numbers, because Rodgers can extend the play on his own at times and its not always the O line that should get the credit for those 5+ second wait times or rollouts. But Rodgers routinely gets to sit back there and wait for something to open deep.

That's why I included last season. Rodgers absolutely does NOT have "mountains of time to complete passes". He is forced to run for his life almost immediately after the snap virtually every pass play. The only reason he has time to complete passes is his excellent escapability. That, however, destroys any hope some people have for some semblance of a more traditional passing game - timing routes, set pass patterns, etc. It all devolves into a scramble drill, but Rodgers is so damn good that it still works out fine. When did you EVER see Rodgers get to "sit back there and wait for something to open up"? Like a lot of jobs, if our O Line is asked to work overtime, it's because they don't accomplish what they are supposed to in the primary time.

What I've seen this preseason that is worrisome is that even the brief periods when the first string line or most of it was in the game, there seemed to be no push at all, no holes for any running game.

[texaspackerbacker]

Correct. Perhaps no team in the NFL asks their OL to pass block longer than the Packers do. It's probably one reason why so many guys who play Guard for the Packers played LT in college. They're looking for pass blockers. Going hand in hand with this is McCarthy's insistence that his QB's have mobility. It's probably one reason why the Packers don't bring in an older veteran to be their backup. These types of guys are usually lacking in mobility. When MM got the HC job here, he put Rodgers through a series of agility tests to see if Rodgers had the mobility to run his offense. He quickly decided that Rodgers did.

So you're saying the Packers and McCarthy PREFER to have everything break down into a scramble - like Fran Tarkenton and Aaron Rodgers - as opposed to having decent blocking and an orderly drop back - like Bart Starr and Tom Brady? Uh ....... I doubt it. It's all about shitty O Line personnel compared to good.

[mraynrand]

So you're saying the Packers and McCarthy PREFER to have everything break down into a scramble - like Fran Tarkenton and Aaron Rodgers - as opposed to having decent blocking and an orderly drop back - like Bart Starr and Tom Brady? Uh ....... I doubt it. It's all about shitty O Line personnel compared to good.

I think the Stubby offense was designed more to Rodger's skills of moving around and making plays. Especially after his 'total vertical game' was hurt by two+ deep defense and diminishment of receiving talent. The NE offense really seems to rely on Brady getting the ball out fast (which itself really relies on Brady's skill at recognizing the defense and finding the proper target quickly, often before the snap) versus great extended pass pro.

[pbmax]

That's why I included last season. Rodgers absolutely does NOT have "mountains of time to complete passes". He is forced to run for his life almost immediately after the snap virtually every pass play.

I just don't know what you are watching. There have been injury situations in the last two years where a shortcoming in pass pro was apparent, but its not a tire fire at all when the starters are available.

[red]

i don't know, maybe it has to do with a-rod just running around in the pocket on his own way too much. but you watch other lesser teams, and it sure seems like they give their QB's forever to get rid of the ball

just watching our games, the opponents always seem to have more time to throw

[texaspackerbacker]

i don't know, maybe it has to do with a-rod just running around in the pocket on his own way too much. but you watch other lesser teams, and it sure seems like they give their QB's forever to get rid of the ball

just watching our games, the opponents always seem to have more time to throw

That's a pretty accurate description of things - which came first, the chicken or the egg? We seriously are supposed to believe that Rodgers WANTS to run for his life instead of setting up in the pocket like so many other QBs are able to do, and McCarthy WANTS that as his primary offense?

I'd say it's pretty obvious that personnel and the resulting lack of pass blocking dictates what happens, NOT Rodgers and/or McCarthy wanting it that way. Others are entitled to their opinion, but that's mine.

[mraynrand]

i don't know, maybe it has to do with a-rod just running around in the pocket on his own way too much. but you watch other lesser teams, and it sure seems like they give their QB's forever to get rid of the ball

Depends who 'they' are. I've seen a lot of pretty piss poor pass pro.

just watching our games, the opponents always seem to have more time to throw

And this is often true without the above being false. Perspective matters.