Ted and Brian and Dom and Mike

[Harlan Huckleby]

THIG instead of THanksTed will be what helps GB's defense the most.
Ted failed us on defense....over and over....Dom is the easy GOAT; look at Ted.

I mostly agree with this. But maybe Dom became a "genius" riding the 3-4 wave, and has been a bit over-rated. Fuck if I know.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I thought Dom was a 3-4 innovator with Pittsburgh.

After becoming the predominant defensive alignment in the late 1970s-early 1980s the 3–4 defense declined in popularity over the next two decades, but experienced a resurgence in the 2000s among both professional and college football teams.

Hmmmm...

The Pittsburgh Steelers have used the 3–4 as their base defense since 1982, the season after Hall of Fame defensive tackle Joe Greene and end L. C. Greenwood retired. In fact, the Steelers were the only NFL team to use the 3–4 defense during the 2001 NFL season, but finished the season as the number one defense in the NFL.[2] It is believed that the Steelers success with the 3–4 defense is the primary reason why many NFL teams have started returning to the formation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3%E2%80%934_defense

[Fritz]

So you honestly don't think the coaching staff had anything to do with Hundley and the D not being ready?

PB, you know from my past posts that I think MM is going down a bad road these days. He kept Dom around for too long - surprising since he's shown in the past a willingness or even a proclivity to can his own assistants, essentially blaming them for big-game collapses. He is to blame for saying Hundley was ready (after two years in the system) when he was not at all.

But Thompson and his team seem to have fallen into the trap of complacency - doing the same things over and over, hoping for that one breakthrough year where they got to the SB again. But TT slipped, not getting That Big Stud you've got to get every so often. Furthermore, he botched 2015 and has not compensated with recent drafts that bring even the James Jones-Jermichael Finley-Mike Daniels levels of talent that can take you places.

WhineyMikey may have seen this happening, but his answer was to try to buy players and fire assistants instead of taking his share of the blame. There's enough for everyone. And Ted was also responsible for MM.

The bottom line is that this team has shown that without Rodgers, it's not even a mediocre team. Having said that, you cannot deny that TT was a very good GM for several years in Green Bay. Things just slipped there toward the end, though we still may see Kenny Clark develop into a great player this year.

[Patler]

Many here at Rat Central, and ALL of packer writer Twitter, is agog at the number of players that Ted drafted that Gute has let go.

But many are missing a big piece of the picture. I haven't read everything yet, but I have not seen one mention of the change at Defensive Coordinator as being behind some of the moves.

Remember 2009? When they asked a Pro Bowl DE to move to OLB? And the man was as unhappy as a silent person could appear to be?

AJ Hawk was moved to the middle in what would be, unfortunately, the beginning of the end of his effective play?

They let Colin Cole walk. They traded Tony Moll for Derek Martin. Let go of Lasagna, Antonio Smith (signed especially for Capers it was thought) was cut, let Cyril Obiozor go (they brought him back).

Jeremy Thompson and Brady Poppinga both held down time at OLB but didn't last a month holing off Matthews and by midseason Jones on the other side.

And some guy named Johnny Jolly beat out Justin Harrell and BJ Raji to start next to Pickett and Jenkins.

In 2018, I think the defensive backend has been turned over specifically to match the new scheme. Rollins has a new role. They matchup one big and one smurf with WRs.

Some of the cuts and trades might have been dead weight. But I suspect a number of them were due to the scheme change as well.

Agreed. Then throw in the fact that the Packers had 11 draft picks this year, and you are guaranteed to have more than average turnover. Rookies commonly are kept over veterans who have failed to make significant impact, just because you never know which rookie might develop into an impact player, but you already know that that many of the veterans are JAGs. In a way, Thompson set the groundwork for a roster makeover this year by letting veterans walk in FA last year, resulting in four relatively high compensatory picks that you expect to keep.

[Patler]

I think it remains to be seen if the fact that Randall was traded for a backup QB is an indictment of Thompson's drafting, Gutekunsts' trade, or the coaching staff's inability to work with Randall. He had his ups and downs last year, but was their best corner the last part of the season. The NFL is filled with abrasive personalities, and Randall may be one of them, but maybe the Packers gave up on him too easily. Or, maybe Kizer turns out to be a valuable pickup. Maybe both.

Were Thompson's later drafts any worse than Wolf's later ones? Other than 2000, Wolf's later drafts were pretty weak. 2001 was so bad I doubt either Wolf or Sherman want to claim responsibility for it. When a team makes the playoff's year after year, many of their drafts won't look so good years down the road. Picking toward the bottom of the first round is tough, especially when years are weak overall in talent.

[Fritz]

I think it remains to be seen if the fact that Randall was traded for a backup QB is an indictment of Thompson's drafting, Gutekunsts' trade, or the coaching staff's inability to work with Randall. He had his ups and downs last year, but was their best corner the last part of the season. The NFL is filled with abrasive personalities, and Randall may be one of them, but maybe the Packers gave up on him too easily. Or, maybe Kizer turns out to be a valuable pickup. Maybe both.

Were Thompson's later drafts any worse than Wolf's later ones? Other than 2000, Wolf's later drafts were pretty weak. 2001 was so bad I doubt either Wolf or Sherman want to claim responsibility for it. When a team makes the playoff's year after year, many of their drafts won't look so good years down the road. Picking toward the bottom of the first round is tough, especially when years are weak overall in talent.

I agree that Wolf's later drafts were also not that great, but the topic of discussion was specifically Thompson. And while anyone can admit that picking at the end of the round means fewer good choices, there's enough after-the-fact evidence of really good players being picked after the likes of Datone Jones and Damarious Randall and the like. The move-ups in later drafts - for Spriggs, for example - did not work out close to the move-up for Matthews, and it remains to be seen whether Spriggs can be a serviceable starter, much less an above-average tackle. Yes, hindsight is nice, but Ted is better at this than we are, and I thought was, early on, better at it than the vast majority of his colleagues in the NFL. I just think he slipped a bit toward the end.

I still think he was a very good GM for a good period of time. Given his philosophy of mostly draft and develop, though, he needed to hit big or often a lot more than he was able to as time went on.

[pbmax]

PB, you know from my past posts that I think MM is going down a bad road these days. He kept Dom around for too long - surprising since he's shown in the past a willingness or even a proclivity to can his own assistants, essentially blaming them for big-game collapses. He is to blame for saying Hundley was ready (after two years in the system) when he was not at all.

But Thompson and his team seem to have fallen into the trap of complacency - doing the same things over and over, hoping for that one breakthrough year where they got to the SB again. But TT slipped, not getting That Big Stud you've got to get every so often. Furthermore, he botched 2015 and has not compensated with recent drafts that bring even the James Jones-Jermichael Finley-Mike Daniels levels of talent that can take you places.

WhineyMikey may have seen this happening, but his answer was to try to buy players and fire assistants instead of taking his share of the blame. There's enough for everyone. And Ted was also responsible for MM.

The bottom line is that this team has shown that without Rodgers, it's not even a mediocre team. Having said that, you cannot deny that TT was a very good GM for several years in Green Bay. Things just slipped there toward the end, though we still may see Kenny Clark develop into a great player this year.

McCarthy, for a successful coach (not being sarcastic) really waits for a bad season to can assistants. He dumped a load of them after 2008 and now again after 2017's disaster. I understand why, what I don't understand is how you plan to improve while your team is successful. Managing personnel like this is completely reactive.

I don't think it was complacency that drove Thompson and the front office. I think they thought they were close and did not need major turnover. Its clear now they were slowly getting worse, but it wasn't always obvious. In 2012, after a huge letdown in 2011, the Defense rebounded well. 2013 was another tire fire due to major injuries, but I will once again remind everyone that the Defense kept this team in games while the offense spun its wheels late in the season and post-season (still mad about the 49er playoff game).

In 2014 the Defense was pretty average and it was better than average in 2015. There is no reason other than comically conservative play calling that the 2014 Defense did not propel that team to the Super Bowl. The offense let the Defense down in 2015.

The problem with results like this is that you always think its one healthy guy or one draft pick away from being regularly Top 10. Its clear now it wasn't.

And I agree with you (Fritz) that by now, its clear that top defensive draft picks from this same period were actively making the team worse. They compounded that by letting too much talent walk (Thompson's preference for youth hurt) AND Capers preference for system fits rather than adapting the system (Hyde was let go mainly because he should have been a safety and Capers wanted a hybrid that did not suit him).

One reason to both be mad at McCarthy and understand his desire for some personnel sway, is that had Thompson and Capers brokered a better deal, the defense would have been better AND be better positioned now for the future. I LOVE Jones as the hybrid corner/safety, 3rd safety, 3rd down ILB and he could have done that with Dix and Hyde as true starting safeties.

[Fritz]

" I think they thought they were close and did not need major turnover. Its clear now they were slowly getting worse, but it wasn't always obvious."

This.

"The problem with results like this is that you always think its one healthy guy or one draft pick away from being regularly Top 10. Its clear now it wasn't."

And this.

I think we pretty much agree.

[Patler]

I agree that Wolf's later drafts were also not that great, but the topic of discussion was specifically Thompson. And while anyone can admit that picking at the end of the round means fewer good choices, there's enough after-the-fact evidence of really good players being picked after the likes of Datone Jones and Damarious Randall and the like. The move-ups in later drafts - for Spriggs, for example - did not work out close to the move-up for Matthews, and it remains to be seen whether Spriggs can be a serviceable starter, much less an above-average tackle. Yes, hindsight is nice, but Ted is better at this than we are, and I thought was, early on, better at it than the vast majority of his colleagues in the NFL. I just think he slipped a bit toward the end.

I still think he was a very good GM for a good period of time. Given his philosophy of mostly draft and develop, though, he needed to hit big or often a lot more than he was able to as time went on.

...and yet Datone Jones is starting for Dallas, Lawrence Guy is starting for New England, Jerel Worthy is a backup for Tampa Bay. Randall, Hyde and Hayward are all starters, too. Hyde and Hayward were Pro Bowlers. Bad picks, or did the coaching staff misuse, fail to develop or simply give up on them? I don't pretend to know the answers, but I have tended to see recent playoff failures as coaching letdowns more than anything. Just my opinion. I don't think the defense should have been as putrid as it has been at times even if they didn't have the best talent in the league.

[Fritz]

While I think Datone Jones's starting for Dallas says more about Dallas's lack of talent than it does about Jones, I agree that Capers had a hand in this team's failures. Same for Guy and Worthy, though you could argue Guy was a steal - wasn't he a seventh rounder? But I can't imagine you're arguing that Worthy was a good pick (especially since the Pack moved up to get him) just because he's still in the league. He hasn't done much to speak of anywhere he's been.

I stand by my opinion that TT's system of playing youngsters or giving them the highest number of chances meant that he had pressure to produce more talent in his drafts in order to keep it all going, and he didn't do that quite as well later in his career as he did earlier. That's not to say that I think Capers or MM are blameless; far from it. Yet TT was responsible for keeping MM, too. Yet it would be difficult to fire someone with MM's record.

It's a tough job.

[Patler]

No, Worthy wasn't what you hoped for as a second round pick, but my point with him is that he is still hanging around in his seventh year. Worthy hasn't played much, or done much, but for seven seasons people all around the league have seen some potential in him, or he would have been gone years ago. I've read that scouts consider a draft pick to have been a successful one if the guy is still in the league four years later. Worthy has gone well beyond that, even if by the skin of his teeth. I find it hard to be critical of a pick like that, even if id didn't work out as hoped.

Why has the defense been so bad? I have always felt that things turned south with Collins' injury. He was just hitting his prime and should/could have been the face of the defense for a lot of years. Second factor is that Matthews time as an elite player was very brief. How long has it been since he really impacted the outcome of a game, or stepped up at a critical moment in a game. The BJ Raji situation has always been a bit baffling to me. For a very short time he looked like he could be a real impact player. Was he misused? Did he lack the drive? Did his drive fade because of how he was used? Would other coaches have gotten more out of him?

If Hayward and Hyde had shown more routinely in GB what they have shown since leaving, is there any doubt they would have gotten second contracts in GB? Instead, when they left there was a nagging feeling that it might be regretted, yet on a team with other expensive players it was hard to fault not signing them. But the real question is, why under McCarthy/Capers did they fail to show themselves as reliable components to a better defense?

Thompson has been criticized for other picks like Newhouse, Barbre and Giacomini either at the time they were picked or when they didn't become stars. Yet each lasted in the league for a long time, indicating that the picks were not totally without merit.

The more I think about it, the more blame I direct towards the coaching staff.

[pbmax]

Hayward is a guy who basically was done in by injuries as far as his Packer tenure. He had enough of them that it looked like they had affected his speed and there were other options at CB that were cheaper and healthier. If he doesn't have some of those injuries, he is still probably their starting CB with a bigger contract than the one he signed in San Diego.

In a way, luck simply turned on that position group. The needed help to overcome the loss of Mike McKenzie and the difficulty replacing him. So they signed Woodson, who lasted longer than we probably had a right to expect. When Harris was done, they had Tramontana. When Woodson was done, they had Shields. It normally doesn't work like that as they have seen for a few years.