Robinson signed to two year deal

[mngolf19]

Very well put, Woody.

[Guiness]

Something else surprised me from the policy

(2)Discipline for Second Failure to Comply in Stage Two: A player who has two Positive Tests in Stage Two; or fails twice, as determined by the Medical Director, to comply with his Treatment Plan in Stage Two; or has a Positive Test and fails to comply with his Treatment Plan, as determined by the Medical Director, will incur:

(a) A suspension for the period of time to cover four consecutive regular and post season games (including the Pro Bowl, if selected) without pay if the player was fined pursuant to Section E.2.b.(1)(a) above; and

(b) A suspension for the period of time to cover six consecutive regular and post season games (including the Pro Bowl, if selected) without pay if the player was suspended pursuant to Section E.2.b.(1)(b) above.”

So it's not really a 3 strike program. You actually get a strike 2 1/2.

Once again, this is academic in this case. KRob was on probation, and will likely go to jail if he's convicted, so an NFL suspension is of less consequence, I'd guess.

[woodbuck27]

Very well put, Woody.

Thank YOU Packer fan.

and ....GregJennings sorry... but you are not right man.

You are about using a human being, as once the owners of slaves once operated and why your great Nation stood devided in the Right's and GOOD of and for " the common man". Koren Robinson is sick Gregjennings.

To use him as you (GregJennings) propose is cruel - sickness.

INCOMPETENT on TT's behalf to GO THERE.

You never learned from your Nations History GregJennings.

Your ignorance stands against your better interests as a human being holistically.

You might consider more carefully what is right from wrong, as this issue stands for or against "the Green Bay Packer Organization" ??

What is bigger? YOU or THE RIGHT RESPONSE ?

May you GregJennings arrive... as I TRUST you will? for YOU.

GOOD LUCK GregJennings.

THE GREEN BAY PACKER - ORGANIZATION !!

[mngolf19]

I'm a Viking fan, Woody. But that's ok, I know what your saying.

[woodbuck27]

I'm a Viking fan, Woody. But that's ok, I know what your saying.

I apologize to you mngolf19. Of course, your a Viking fan.

What a difference between you and rastak and BEARMAN.

When willl BEARMAN hibernate?

Congratulations on a hard fought win last night mngolf19 and Rastak.

I was at an establishment here in the Montreal area for supper last night and watched alot of that game.

I thought Brad Johnson looked very good.

Nice win over a decent team.

GO PACK GO. Fan Faith for 2006 !

[MJZiggy]

Woody, the Bearman, as we speak is probably spewing trash all over the Lions' fan forum. He will be back to see us if they lose to try and soote his wounded feelings by rubbing in our last encounter.

[red]

if the nfl wants to make alcohol out to be this big banned substance that they are willing to suspend a player for a whole year if he chooses to do. then IMO they need to test every player everyday, and they need to stop letting beer companies advertise during games and at stadiums. and you know what, they need to stop selling at games, because i can promise you there are thousands of very drunk people driving around on the streets of green bay and every other nfl city after a game.

but then nfl wouldn't do that, even if it would keep people safe and safe lives, because they would lose 100's of millions of dollars

Red - the NFL does not want to make alcohol a 'big banned substance'. Actually, as far as I can tell, they could care less if the average player gets falling down drunk every day. It's a legal substance, and that's that. The NFL does not punish players for drinking alcohol, they punish players for related offenses i.e. drunk driving.

The Commissioner will review and may impose a fine, suspension, or other appropriate discipline if a player is convicted of or admits to a violation of the law relating to the use of alcohol.

Alcohol is not one of their regularly tested substances. It only becomes so after a player enters the substance abuse program.

Moreover, the use of alcohol may be prohibited for individual players
in certain situations where clinically indicated in accordance with the terms of this Policy.

Of course, KRob is already in the program

Both of these quotes are from the official NFLPA policy at http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/rulesandre...olicy_2005.pdf
Took me a bit to find it, but it's a good read if you've been following this thread.

i did go on the nflpa site last night and found this same stuff. and i think you have two different things here

the first quote you gave is for breaking every day rules, and are on a case by case basis. like for instance you shoot someone, or break some other law. speeding and running from the cops while drunk would fall in this category. after the player is tried, AND if the player is found guilty, the comish then decides how big the fine or suspension would be. could be a game, could be for, could be a whole season, whatever the commish wants.

but then we get to the substance abuse and this line

“The illegal use of drugs and the abuse of prescription drugs, over-the-counter drugs, and alcohol (hereinafter referred to as "substances of abuse") is prohibited [ftnt 1] for players in the National Football League ("NFL"). Moreover, the use of alcohol may be prohibited for individual players in certain situations where clinically indicated in accordance with the terms of this Policy."

then it gets sticky IMO. it says right there that alcohol in some cases is just as bad as illegal drugs, and certain players are prohibited. but does a test done by someone other then the nfl count? and if this goes to trial and the DWI gets thrown out, will it still count with the nfl? and will the nfl go as far as to suspend a guy for a whole year for drinking a few beers just like almost every other nfl player does?

the only difference is that k-rob has been caught being drunk a few times, and they haven't the nfl could put 85-90% of their players in the substance abuse program for drinking a few beers if they want too

Red, do you think that's been the mindset of those on this board, or would you like me to draw a similarly exaggerated opposing viewpoint.

There are folks here who just don't think this is the best thing for Koren Robinson right now, and who have questioned what effect it will have on the lockerroom.

i'm not sure what you're commenting on, but i'll take a guess.

rastak is calling a few of us a bunch of idiot jackasses because we can't see that k-rob has broke the law and will be locked up suspended for a year. myself and patler are arguing back, that this is america, and anything can happen. you are innocent until proven guilty, there are false police reports, there are plea bargains, there are tons of ways that this isn't an open and shut case that he will be locked up and suspended. OJ was found guilty in a civil trial of murder, yet he is free to walk. this is america, if you have the lawyers and the money, you can beat our legal system

[Rastak]

if the nfl wants to make alcohol out to be this big banned substance that they are willing to suspend a player for a whole year if he chooses to do. then IMO they need to test every player everyday, and they need to stop letting beer companies advertise during games and at stadiums. and you know what, they need to stop selling at games, because i can promise you there are thousands of very drunk people driving around on the streets of green bay and every other nfl city after a game.

but then nfl wouldn't do that, even if it would keep people safe and safe lives, because they would lose 100's of millions of dollars

Red - the NFL does not want to make alcohol a 'big banned substance'. Actually, as far as I can tell, they could care less if the average player gets falling down drunk every day. It's a legal substance, and that's that. The NFL does not punish players for drinking alcohol, they punish players for related offenses i.e. drunk driving.

The Commissioner will review and may impose a fine, suspension, or other appropriate discipline if a player is convicted of or admits to a violation of the law relating to the use of alcohol.

Alcohol is not one of their regularly tested substances. It only becomes so after a player enters the substance abuse program.

Moreover, the use of alcohol may be prohibited for individual players
in certain situations where clinically indicated in accordance with the terms of this Policy.

Of course, KRob is already in the program

Both of these quotes are from the official NFLPA policy at http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/rulesandre...olicy_2005.pdf
Took me a bit to find it, but it's a good read if you've been following this thread.

i did go on the nflpa site last night and found this same stuff. and i think you have two different things here

the first quote you gave is for breaking every day rules, and are on a case by case basis. like for instance you shoot someone, or break some other law. speeding and running from the cops while drunk would fall in this category. after the player is tried, AND if the player is found guilty, the comish then decides how big the fine or suspension would be. could be a game, could be for, could be a whole season, whatever the commish wants.

but then we get to the substance abuse and this line

“The illegal use of drugs and the abuse of prescription drugs, over-the-counter drugs, and alcohol (hereinafter referred to as "substances of abuse") is prohibited [ftnt 1] for players in the National Football League ("NFL"). Moreover, the use of alcohol may be prohibited for individual players in certain situations where clinically indicated in accordance with the terms of this Policy."

then it gets sticky IMO. it says right there that alcohol in some cases is just as bad as illegal drugs, and certain players are prohibited. but does a test done by someone other then the nfl count? and if this goes to trial and the DWI gets thrown out, will it still count with the nfl? and will the nfl go as far as to suspend a guy for a whole year for drinking a few beers just like almost every other nfl player does?

the only difference is that k-rob has been caught being drunk a few times, and they haven't the nfl could put 85-90% of their players in the substance abuse program for drinking a few beers if they want too

Red, do you think that's been the mindset of those on this board, or would you like me to draw a similarly exaggerated opposing viewpoint.

There are folks here who just don't think this is the best thing for Koren Robinson right now, and who have questioned what effect it will have on the lockerroom.

i'm not sure what you're commenting on, but i'll take a guess.

rastak is calling a few of us a bunch of idiot jackasses because we can't see that k-rob has broke the law and will be locked up suspended for a year. myself and patler are arguing back, that this is america, and anything can happen. you are innocent until proven guilty, there are false police reports, there are plea bargains, there are tons of ways that this isn't an open and shut case that he will be locked up and suspended. OJ was found guilty in a civil trial of murder, yet he is free to walk. this is america, if you have the lawyers and the money, you can beat our legal system

Red, I never called you that by the way. It's a forum and I gave you my opinion. You have yours, I have mine. Proven guilty? The DUI needs to be proven but the felony is self evident for all to see. Also, my understanding is that his trial doesn't need to happen for the NFL to lay down the one year suspension.

I just thought of something....I wonder if his case in Washington will be heard by a die hard Seahawk fan and his felony trial in Minnesota will be heard by a die hard Viking fan....? I'm 99% kidding on that, although a goofy judge isn't out of the realm of possibility.

[vince]

There appears to be two distinct sides to this possible addition of Koren Robinson to OUR 53 Man roster. Well three....

post condensed for space

Ted. ONLY ONE OPTION with Koren Robinson.

There's ONLY the " the possibility of what goes around comes around" in a decision to assist Koren Robinson in a FULL Re-Habilitation PROGRAM.

[Football's OUT for Koren Robinson till he gets HELP.

Woody, thanks for that great response. While it makes great sense, I personally don't see the Packers responsibility extending that far into an employee's personal freedoms, and I would be very surprised if the Packers go to the lengths you believe they must go to act in an "honorable" way. Many people believe (I'm one of them) that the "honorable" thing to do - in general terms - is to respect people's freedoms and right of self-determination.

It is not the Packers role, nor should it be, to act as any individual's judge. That is the role of our judicial system, and that is what Koren will need to deal with.

As an "honorable" organization, who cares for the well-being of their "people", I see your point, but as has been stated, Koren needs to want to kick alcoholism HIMSELF. Nothing that the Packers can dictate to him will eliminate his freedom and free will to do what he wants to do. All the Packers can do (and some would say - should) is provide him compensation for services rendered. That's the employer-employee relationship at its core. Will they go farther than that? I bet they do. Will they go as far as you believe they must? I doubt it. And I don't believe they should...

In any event, I definitly benefited from your very well-presented position. Thanks again.

[Terry]

Yes, idle, I remember the definition of insanity that you refer to. That definition could of course be reworked to read, "If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again and ye shall be adjudged insane."

In actuality, I don't really dispute, in some black and white sense, the team's culpability should things go very wrong. It's just a concept that is very difficult to quantify and cuts too many fine lines, imo, for this whole issue. My problem with it is how it sounds to people. Furthermore, it's just tenuous enough that people will apply it as it suits them. One cannot write laws (or should not) in a republic based on such concepts. As a practical matter, I don't think the Packers are culpable in the manner of which you speak. As a moral matter, that is a matter between them and something else - whether we think in terms of conscience, karma, universe, God, or any other name for divinity one wishes.

OJ was found guilty in a civil trial of murder, yet he is free to walk. this is america, if you have the lawyers and the money, you can beat our legal system

That's very misleading. Of course he is free to walk - he was found NOT guilty in a criminal trial with a jury of his peers. Personally, I always felt that the civil trial was a way to work around our system in terms of double jeopardy. For a democracy and a republic, it was a very dangerous precedent, imo. It undermines everything the Founding Fathers stood for.

I do agree with your second quoted statement here. That's the way it's always been, everywhere.

[Tarlam!]

O.K. I read all 11 pages and I listened to the K-Rob video on Packers.com.

I sincerely hope the holier-than-thou posters never face serious adversity combined with alcohol.

Serious adversity can come in various forms, like massive success. Massive, unexpected success can rock your boat in ways you never dreamed. Coping with it is tougher than you might think. There is a reason why power-ball winners are offered ongoing payments of their winnings - namely, so that they can grow accustomed to being filthy rich. It is not an easy adjustment.

I live in Germany. The vast majority of lotto winners (the equivalent of power-ball) have at best, pissed away their money by the 3rd year. At worst, they in hocked up to their eyeballs.

I also read about a corporate accounts guy on an early page saying he uses alcohol with his clients. I am in the same game, I used to joke about having a liver transplant option put into my employment contract.

I don't know how old you are, but, I advise you to start drinking Perrier. I could show you a before and after shot of me. If you are young enough, you would stop immediately. Alcohol is a fun drug, but it takes control when you least expect it.

Robinson has a disease, like me. He is an alcoholic. Like me. He probably started drinking quite innocently, or, cause that's what one does.

He blew 1.1. That's a frigging laughable number for a liver that is used to digesting half a bottle of Johnnie Walker per day. 4 beers for a heavy drinker is nothing. Nothing.

I know you have speed limits on your motorways. Some of you know, most of our motorways have no speed limits. So, I drive to work at 220 kmh. 120 Mph is "normal" around here.

Clearly, though, the guy is sick. TT has known this kid since college. TT, IMO, believes the player and the club can help each other cope with their respective deficiencies. In terms of dollars and cents, TT made sure the club has the high ground.

In the battle of the moral high ground, TT knew the shit would hit the fan. TT has put himself in an almost can't win situation with this signing; if Krob screws up, TT is a bad judge of character. If he doesn't play well, he is a poor judge of player potential. If Krob cops a year off, TT wasted a 2006/7 roster spot. If he gets off, TT will have manipulated something.

If Krob has any success, pundits from across the league will always use the byline "...but, how long before he visits the pub?"....

TT showed a lot of guts with this signed.

Ras, I really like you, but your opinions on this sound like a disappointed fan that went through the same torturous debate, probably accepted the signing only to be disappointed. I know how that feels in family related issues, I recognize the symptoms.

[Patler]

OJ was found guilty in a civil trial of murder, yet he is free to walk. this is america, if you have the lawyers and the money, you can beat our legal system

That's very misleading. Of course he is free to walk - he was found NOT guilty in a criminal trial with a jury of his peers. Personally, I always felt that the civil trial was a way to work around our system in terms of double jeopardy. For a democracy and a republic, it was a very dangerous precedent, imo. It undermines everything the Founding Fathers stood for.
.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Civil trials following criminal trials have happened forever. Different issues, different standards of proof. It is not that unusual for someone to be both "not guilty" when the standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt" and the verdict must be unanimous; and found civilly liable for damages ($) when the standard is some form of a "preponderance of evidence" and the verdict requires only a simple majority of the jurors.

[red]

patler, i didn't understand a word you just said

[J-Rok]

My only question: Can the guy get open?

[oregonpackfan]

O.K. I read all 11 pages and I listened to the K-Rob video on Packers.com.

I sincerely hope the holier-than-thou posters never face serious adversity combined with alcohol.

Serious adversity can come in various forms, like massive success. Massive, unexpected success can rock your boat in ways you never dreamed. Coping with it is tougher than you might think. There is a reason why power-ball winners are offered ongoing payments of their winnings - namely, so that they can grow accustomed to being filthy rich. It is not an easy adjustment.

I live in Germany. The vast majority of lotto winners (the equivalent of power-ball) have at best, pissed away their money by the 3rd year. At worst, they in hocked up to their eyeballs.

I also read about a corporate accounts guy on an early page saying he uses alcohol with his clients. I am in the same game, I used to joke about having a liver transplant option put into my employment contract.

I don't know how old you are, but, I advise you to start drinking Perrier. I could show you a before and after shot of me. If you are young enough, you would stop immediately. Alcohol is a fun drug, but it takes control when you least expect it.

Robinson has a disease, like me. He is an alcoholic. Like me. He probably started drinking quite innocently, or, cause that's what one does.

He blew 1.1. That's a frigging laughable number for a liver that is used to digesting half a bottle of Johnnie Walker per day. 4 beers for a heavy drinker is nothing. Nothing.

I know you have speed limits on your motorways. Some of you know, most of our motorways have no speed limits. So, I drive to work at 220 kmh. 120 Mph is "normal" around here.

Clearly, though, the guy is sick. TT has known this kid since college. TT, IMO, believes the player and the club can help each other cope with their respective deficiencies. In terms of dollars and cents, TT made sure the club has the high ground.

In the battle of the moral high ground, TT knew the shit would hit the fan. TT has put himself in an almost can't win situation with this signing; if Krob screws up, TT is a bad judge of character. If he doesn't play well, he is a poor judge of player potential. If Krob cops a year off, TT wasted a 2006/7 roster spot. If he gets off, TT will have manipulated something.

If Krob has any success, pundits from across the league will always use the byline "...but, how long before he visits the pub?"....

TT showed a lot of guts with this signed.

Ras, I really like you, but your opinions on this sound like a disappointed fan that went through the same torturous debate, probably accepted the signing only to be disappointed. I know how that feels in family related issues, I recognize the symptoms.

Tarlam,

Thank you for your insightful and revealing post.

In an earlier post, I posed the question: What is the best course of action for Koren Robinson in dealing with his disease of alcoholism?

Do you feel he should be in an intensive alcohol rehab center to focus on his recovery and not play pro football? Or is it your opinion that he receive private out-patient alcohol counseling and continue to play for the Packers?

I am aware that Robinson already has been in alcohol rehab at least once, if not, a couple of times. It is my understanding that some alcoholics/substance abusers need several rehab stints to finally become sober/clean.

Your input would be appreciated, Tarlam.

OPF