Official Fire Bisaccia Thread

[texaspackerbacker]

No I can't but what's that saying, correlation is not necessarily causation.

I'm not gonna take the time to research it, but I'm pretty sure there are other teams that like to draft and develop that play good special teams as well as some that aren't into draft and develop/use older players on special teams that screw up a lot on special teams.

Basically, shit happens, but it certainly seems to happen more with Bisaccia.

[sharpe1027]

I'd like to test this theory a bit. Can anyone share the PFF special teams rankings for 2025? I seems to be behind a paywall.

[Fritz]

Then you can favor us by naming the last Packers team with good special teams while under the a draft and develop philosophy?

Here's the issue I have with saying the cause might be "draft and develop": every team in the NFL has to draft and develop now, thanks to the salary cap. Sure, there's some variation in average age of teams, but since the advent of the salary cap, no one can afford an Allen Rossum any more. Every team in the NFL is in some form of draft and develop since the salary cap arrived (along with QB's eating up more and more of that salary cap; a key point, I think).

However, I do agree that changing coaches is probably not the answer - as you point out, the Packers have tried a few different ST coaches and none has been the answer. In fact, Bisaccia probably has more say in the roster than any of the ST coordinators before him.

To me, the biggest issue might be the lack of practice time. I was shocked when I read how little time is devoted to ST practice. Geez. Maybe giving the ST coach just a leeetle bit of time in practice would go a long way.

[pbmax]

No I can't but what's that saying, correlation is not necessarily causation.

I'm not gonna take the time to research it, but I'm pretty sure there are other teams that like to draft and develop that play good special teams as well as some that aren't into draft and develop/use older players on special teams that screw up a lot on special teams.

Basically, shit happens, but it certainly seems to happen more with Bisaccia.

Assuming the highly regarded, expensive and previously successful special teams coach suddenly cannot coach special teams and that this explains the Packer poor results on these units is literally the best example of correlation not being causation I can think of.

Bissacia has a track record of performance here. The Packers do not.

[pbmax]

Here's the issue I have with saying the cause might be "draft and develop": every team in the NFL has to draft and develop now, thanks to the salary cap. Sure, there's some variation in average age of teams, but since the advent of the salary cap, no one can afford an Allen Rossum any more. Every team in the NFL is in some form of draft and develop since the salary cap arrived (along with QB's eating up more and more of that salary cap; a key point, I think).

However, I do agree that changing coaches is probably not the answer - as you point out, the Packers have tried a few different ST coaches and none has been the answer. In fact, Bisaccia probably has more say in the roster than any of the ST coordinators before him.

To me, the biggest issue might be the lack of practice time. I was shocked when I read how little time is devoted to ST practice. Geez. Maybe giving the ST coach just a leeetle bit of time in practice would go a long way.

Its a fair question and I suspect all these items play a part in other teams being more successful than the Packers on ST in spite of being draft and develop.

1. Gute has had a couple dud drafts and those young veteran cheapies aren't on the roster anymore. Normally, a couple would be special teamers.

2. Not all teams that draft and develop (they all say they do this but only a few are committed as the Packers) eschew specialty players who might excel on special teams in the draft like the Packers do. You can hear the surprise in local beat guys when a guy the Packers draft is hyped as ST contributor because it rarely happens.

3. When they get gadget guys, Savion Williams, they play them at positions they aren't familiar with (Savion hasn't returned kicks since high school). Nixon was a ST add for Bissacia and now can't return kicks because he is a starter at CB.

4. Not all draft and develop teams are as leery of 3rd contracts as the Packers are. Which leaves them the youngest team in the League year after year.

5. Gute isn't quite Ted in Free Agency avoidance but the difference in the two produces younger rosters with less ST specialists. Gute had a lot of dead cap money from previous deals riding the books. He'g going to have more when Love and Parson hit the later years of their deals. So Gute's top players are very expensive cap wise, necessitating more cheap young players. With Ted you might get Jarett Bush for a few years.

6. This team is always rehearsing returners and coverage guys. They just don't want to spend the roster spot spent on a 6th WR or 8 DB to do ST.

I think the common link is that the Packers are maximizing the roster for Offense and Defense at all times for almost all roster spots. That means fewer special teams demons. When the Bears stink they can have an entire pro bowl ST unit because the O and D aren't worth a damn and there are fewer Pro Bowler stars to protect by sitting them down.

Practice time might be an issue. I'd love to see and read the source of your statement there. That is the other bad outcome I could see would be the front office preaching analytical advice on number of snaps to avoid injuries and LaFLeur needing reps to get players ready. The ST might get squeezed.

But this has gone on too long to be just Gute, one analytics guy and LaFluer. McCarthy struggled with it too and Ted didn't have a solution.

[pbmax]

This will be a work in progress since I do not know of a site that tracks all of Rich Gosselin's ST rankings. These are just the Packers for what there is on his website. https://rickgosselin.com/rick-gossel...eams-rankings/


2023 - 29th
2022 - 22nd
2021 - 32nd
2020 - 29th
2019 - 26th
2018 - 32nd
2017 - 16th
2016 - 29th
2015 - 17th
2014 - 32nd
2013 - 19th
2012 - 12th
2011 - 13th
2010 - 29th
2009 - 31st

I'll get more later if I can

[Fritz]

Its a fair question and I suspect all these items play a part in other teams being more successful than the Packers on ST in spite of being draft and develop.

1. Gute has had a couple dud drafts and those young veteran cheapies aren't on the roster anymore. Normally, a couple would be special teamers.

2. Not all teams that draft and develop (they all say they do this but only a few are committed as the Packers) eschew specialty players who might excel on special teams in the draft like the Packers do. You can hear the surprise in local beat guys when a guy the Packers draft is hyped as ST contributor because it rarely happens.

3. When they get gadget guys, Savion Williams, they play them at positions they aren't familiar with (Savion hasn't returned kicks since high school). Nixon was a ST add for Bissacia and now can't return kicks because he is a starter at CB.

4. Not all draft and develop teams are as leery of 3rd contracts as the Packers are. Which leaves them the youngest team in the League year after year.

5. Gute isn't quite Ted in Free Agency avoidance but the difference in the two produces younger rosters with less ST specialists. Gute had a lot of dead cap money from previous deals riding the books. He'g going to have more when Love and Parson hit the later years of their deals. So Gute's top players are very expensive cap wise, necessitating more cheap young players. With Ted you might get Jarett Bush for a few years.

6. This team is always rehearsing returners and coverage guys. They just don't want to spend the roster spot spent on a 6th WR or 8 DB to do ST.

I think the common link is that the Packers are maximizing the roster for Offense and Defense at all times for almost all roster spots. That means fewer special teams demons. When the Bears stink they can have an entire pro bowl ST unit because the O and D aren't worth a damn and there are fewer Pro Bowler stars to protect by sitting them down.

Practice time might be an issue. I'd love to see and read the source of your statement there. That is the other bad outcome I could see would be the front office preaching analytical advice on number of snaps to avoid injuries and LaFLeur needing reps to get players ready. The ST might get squeezed.

But this has gone on too long to be just Gute, one analytics guy and LaFluer. McCarthy struggled with it too and Ted didn't have a solution.

PB - Here's the link to the interview with Justis Mosqueda, who, I think, is really thoughtful and smart. The whole thing is worth a listen (and he does agree with you on the draft-and-develop thing, by the way), but if you want to cut to the chase, at the 11:40 mark he discusses how limited practices are, and at the 13:12 mark he discusses special teams and the (lack of) practice time they have.

It is a head-scratcher that they use guys like Savion Williams and Matthew Golden for returners when neither has experience. Williams seems unlikely to be anything more than a gadget guy on this team (I know he could develop, but I dunno), so why not draft a gadget guy who's an Allen Rossum? Or draft your last cornerback as someone who also returns kicks or is a jammer specialist on punt teams, or something?

I do think you'll find Mosqueda is worth a listen, and he does in fact repeat many of the points you make, and develops them in detail.

[texaspackerbacker]

Assuming the highly regarded, expensive and previously successful special teams coach suddenly cannot coach special teams and that this explains the Packer poor results on these units is literally the best example of correlation not being causation I can think of.

Bissacia has a track record of performance here. The Packers do not.

Or maybe he was just lucky before, and his luck ran out now. Are you seriously defending the guy?

[sharpe1027]

I found percentages of 2025 drafted vs free agents on the roster. If we have 2025 ST rankings, we can compare. https://www.profootballnetwork.com/n...analysis-2025/

I suspect we'll find teams can have good ST play with a young team built primarily through the draft. I'll note the the Saints have nearly identical roster makeup as the Packers in 2025, and they had the second best 2023 ST rankings. I don't know how much their roster turned over in the past couple years.

[pbmax]

Or maybe he was just lucky before, and his luck ran out now. Are you seriously defending the guy?

I am saying there is no way to know how he is doing given the organization's 20 year history of ineptitude at ST. Changing the coach without changing the approach will produce the same results.

[pbmax]

Gosselin: https://rickgosselin.com/rick-gossel...eams-rankings/
Huber: https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/onsi/...teams-rankings
Gosselin retired after 2023 and Huber's stats are a stripped down version of Gosselin's.


2024 - 22nd
2023 - 29th
2022 - 22nd
2021 - 32nd
2020 - 29th
2019 - 26th
2018 - 32nd
2017 - 16th
2016 - 29th
2015 - 17th
2014 - 32nd
2013 - 19th
2012 - 12th
2011 - 13th
2010 - 29th
2009 - 31st
2008 - 26th
2007 - 7th!
2006 - 32nd
2005 - 32nd
2004 - 9th
2003 - 8th
2002 - 15th
2001 - 21st
2000 - 12th

[texaspackerbacker]

I am saying there is no way to know how he is doing given the organization's 20 year history of ineptitude at ST. Changing the coach without changing the approach will produce the same results.

OK, I can go along with that. However, as you said yourself, he's getting big money , and of course there were fairly high expectations for him. I'd say he has been a big disappointment considering that.

The comparison I'd like to see is how younger probably more innovative and probably cheaper special teams coordinators have done, especially those on draft and develop teams or using a lot of young players on special teams. Maybe no better, but I'd bet no worse either.

[sharpe1027]

Rankings as Percentage of Drafted to special teams rankings
Ravens 1-29
Bucs 2-14
Rams 3-22
Jags 4-5
Bills 5-27
Cowboys 6-3
Packers 7-22
Saints 8-9
Chiefs 9-21

I'll try to put this in a spreadsheet, but it doesn't look like having a drafted team means your special teams can't be good.

[sharpe1027]

I don't think the theory that draft and develop leads to bad special teams play holds water. The correlation coefficient between % of drafted players on a roster and special teams rank was 0.048876; T=0.268, p=0.79.


Team Drafted Percentage Special Teams Score
Lions 54.8 33
Raiders 48.5 41
Cowboys 60.8 49
Broncos 52.2 54
Jaguars 62.7 56
Bears 41.2 57
Texans 43.8 57
Comm. 36.5 58
Saints 57.8 67
Dolphins 47.1 72
Bengals 57.1 74
Steelers 39.2 74
Patriots 42.9 76
Bucs 69.4 77
Seahawks 52.2 79
Cardinals 38.5 79
Panthers 35.3 83
Colts 56.5 88
Jets 47.2 88
Giants 45.8 90
Chiefs 57.5 91
Packers 57.8 92
Rams 66.7 92
Chargers 50.8 95
Browns 44.8 97
Eagles 47.8 101
Bills 62.7 105
Falcons 39.4 109
Ravens 74.1 117
Titans 47.1 119
Vikings 45.5 122
49ers 48 125

[pbmax]

I don't think the theory that draft and develop leads to bad special teams play holds water. The correlation coefficient between % of drafted players on a roster and special teams rank was 0.048876; T=0.268, p=0.79.

Can you paste that with headers as CODE so I can get it into Excel?

here