Packers want Adalius Thomas

[Patler]

I have some doubts about Hodge being suitable as a long-term starter in any NFL scheme. NFL middle linebackers seem to to be of two types. Today, most seem to be oversize safeties who can run well and are quick. Others are undersized defensive lineman who can plug a hole, shrug off a blocking fullback and not surrender ground to offensive linemen. The really good middle linebackers excel as one type and are better than average as the other type.

I'm not sure where Hodge fits in. Clearly he does not have the speed or quickness like many linebackers of the first type. I don't think we should confuse his hard hits with the physical presence of linebackers of the second type. As I recall, in the Seattle game he was blocked easily, and physically dominated somewhat regularly. I'm certainly not ready to give up on him, technique means much more at the pro level than it does in college. Perhaps with improved technique he will improve in both areas of play.

He could end up being one of those players who makes good solid hard hits but is too infrequently in position to make a tackle and will never be anything more than a backup. His apparent lack of performance on special teams is a concern, as backup linebackers typically have to be solid special teams performers to have a lengthy career..

[HarveyWallbangers]

I'm tend to agree with you patler. It's convenient to really talk up a guy, and then excuse his deficiencies on the Packers scheme. I don't know if he has the speed to play in any scheme.

[wist43]

You can't just dismiss a players suitability for a given scheme... that very subject has made up the core of debate over Thomas.

Thomas is a great player in the Ravens 3-4 scheme... he'd be just another miscast guy in the Packers POS scheme.

Hodge is a lights out hitter, has great instincts, is a solid wrap up tackler, and is tough as nails... he's got a place in the NFL - it's just not going to be in GB.

Beyond that, Hodge is what he is - a 2-down MLB... If Jerimiah Trotter can survive and excel at the NFL level as a 2-down MLB, Hodge should be able to as well.

But, just like Hodge, Trotter would have no place on the Packers roster either... just by way of scheme, there are an awful lot of good football players that the Packers couldn't, or wouldn't, even consider bringing in.

By way of example I would put Trotter, Thomas, Merriman, Rodney Harrison, etc... as examples of guys that have no place on the Packers roster - given their scheme.

[MJZiggy]

So there's never been a player that's adapted to a new scheme? Never happened in the history of football?

[packiowa]

I also found Hodge's lack of ST production especially disturbing. On the other hand, in that Seattle game Hodge had a couple things working against him. He played against a great rb, he had a quality, athletic center on his butt all game long, and the weather was sloppy which makes for more missed tackles than normal. Wait a second, was I talking about Hodge or Urlacher in the Superbowl. I can't remember.

[red]

I also found Hodge's lack of ST production especially disturbing.

i'll third that

and its not like our ST's were all world, we had all kinds of scrubs on coverage

[Patler]

Hodge is a lights out hitter, has great instincts, is a solid wrap up tackler, and is tough as nails... he's got a place in the NFL - it's just not going to be in GB.

Beyond that, Hodge is what he is - a 2-down MLB... If Jerimiah Trotter can survive and excel at the NFL level as a 2-down MLB, Hodge should be able to as well.

You are doing exactly what I think is wrong, equating Hodge's hard hits to Trotter's strong physical presence at middle linebacker. Trotter has been successful because he can clog up running lanes, throw fullbacks aside and stop linemen in their tracks, giving the back no where to run. I have seen nothing to suggest that Hodge can do the same, especially at 30-40 pounds lighter than Trotter. Against Seattle, Hodge was blown out of the way, opening huge running lanes. He had neither the physical presence to stand up to the blocks, nor the quickness to avoid a block or recover from it.

As one of the columnists wrote, Hodge played perhaps the worst game a middle linebacker has played for the Packers in anyone's memory. He has a long way to go to reverse that.

[BallHawk]

.By way of example I would put Trotter, Thomas, Merriman, Rodney Harrison, etc... as examples of guys that have no place on the Packers roster - given their scheme.

So you're saying that, hypothetically, if Shawn Merriman was traded to the Packers, he'd be absolute garbage and he'd never make a Pro Bowl again?

[wist43]

So there's never been a player that's adapted to a new scheme? Never happened in the history of football?

By way of example, Corey Williams is a servicable 4-3 tackle... and I'd imagine would be a servicable 3-4 end; Joey Porter is the type of LB that could play just about anywhere; Mike Wahle is G that could play in just about any scheme... etc. Of course there are players that can play in different schemes, and adapt their games...

That said, and this goes back to the Thomas debate, where would the Packers play him in their scheme???

As a full time end??? A lot of us would argue that b/c Green Bay's scheme is very predicable and static, he'd be matched up with the OT virutally every snap, and he'd wear down over the course of the season.

As an early down LB, with his hand on the ground in passing situations??? I would argue this is a much more plausible scenario, but in Green Bay's very, very static defense - Thomas would essentially become a stationary target, and hence the presnap movement and confusion that now works to his advantage in Baltimore is gone...

The same schematic concerns could just as easily be raised with a great player like Shawn Merriman... Great player, bad fit for the Packers predictable/passive scheme.

Scheme matters... Green Bay's defensive scheme calls for a specific type of player at just about every position. Merriman, Thomas, Hodge, et al... don't fit the scheme.

[wist43]

.By way of example I would put Trotter, Thomas, Merriman, Rodney Harrison, etc... as examples of guys that have no place on the Packers roster - given their scheme.

So you're saying that, hypothetically, if Shawn Merriman was traded to the Packers, he'd be absolute garbage and he'd never make a Pro Bowl again?

Merriman is a great player, but where would you play him???

At LB??? The Packers rarely blitz, and generally ask their LB's to read and flow... hell, the Packers don't even ask their LB's to shoot gaps and get penetration. Merriman would be all but neutered at LB in the Packers scheme.

At end??? The Packers ask their DE's to get up field and defeat the OT - play after play... is Merriman a full time end??? I don't think so.

A player like Merriman would never be "garbage", but the Packers scheme certainly would limit his ability to be disruptive.

[HarveyWallbangers]

If the Packers had Merriman, I'm sure they'd blitz more. Not only that he can play DE in the Packers scheme on passing downs because they don't need big DEs (thus, the reason Kampman has lost 10-15 pounds the last couple of years) and they'd line their guys way outside. Merriman can fit any scheme. Hodge doesn't, and I'm not even sure he's good enough for a scheme that fits him perfectly. Patler makes a good point about the difference between Trotter (in his prime, he's a shell of himself at this point) and Hodge.

[wist43]

Hodge is a lights out hitter, has great instincts, is a solid wrap up tackler, and is tough as nails... he's got a place in the NFL - it's just not going to be in GB.

Beyond that, Hodge is what he is - a 2-down MLB... If Jerimiah Trotter can survive and excel at the NFL level as a 2-down MLB, Hodge should be able to as well.

You are doing exactly what I think is wrong, equating Hodge's hard hits to Trotter's strong physical presence at middle linebacker. Trotter has been successful because he can clog up running lanes, throw fullbacks aside and stop linemen in their tracks, giving the back no where to run. I have seen nothing to suggest that Hodge can do the same, especially at 30-40 pounds lighter than Trotter. Against Seattle, Hodge was blown out of the way, opening huge running lanes. He had neither the physical presence to stand up to the blocks, nor the quickness to avoid a block or recover from it.

As one of the columnists wrote, Hodge played perhaps the worst game a middle linebacker has played for the Packers in anyone's memory. He has a long way to go to reverse that.

Trotter and Hodge are dissimilar players, I just used Trotter as an example b/c he is strictly a 2-down LB. I don't have the Seattle game on tape anymore - wish I did.

As things stand now, I'm content with their current lineup of Hawk, Barnett, and Poppinga. Ultimately, I'd like to see Barnett replaced, but I don't think that's going to happen, and he did play at least average last year...

The fact that Hawk was playing at a pretty high level by seasons end is encouraging.

[wist43]

If the Packers had Merriman, I'm sure they'd blitz more. Not only that he can play DE in the Packers scheme on passing downs because they don't need big DEs (thus, the reason Kampman has lost 10-15 pounds the last couple of years) and they'd line their guys way outside. Merriman can fit any scheme. Hodge doesn't, and I'm not even sure he's good enough for a scheme that fits him perfectly. Patler makes a good point about the difference between Trotter (in his prime, he's a shell of himself at this point) and Hodge.

I agreed with Patlers comments on Hodge/Trotter...

Don't agree with you about Merriman though... I think just about any team, with just about any scheme would find a way to make him effective - except the Packers, and the POS scheme they run.

There is absolutely no subterfuge to this defense... the DE's get up the field, the DT's two-gap more often than not in an attempt to protect the LB's, and the LB's sit back and flow to the ball - pretty vanilla stuff.

Merriman's talent would be wasted in the Green Bay's scheme, just as I think Thomas's would... unless of course Sanders suddenly sprouted a brain, and decided to get more creative - doubt that will happen though.

[Patler]

I would not be surprised to see all new backup linebackers next season. Neither White nor Taylor are under contract. I doubt that Taylor has any interest in returning. He expected to see more playing time than he got. White seems to know and understand that his role is special teams, based on a couple interviews last season. He and TT have some hsitory together, so he could be re-signed. I would not be at all surprised to see Hodge replaced by a draft pick this year. On the other hand, I also won't be surprised if he is given another year to prove himself. That group needs a decent, reliable, versatile even if unspectacular sub. (I think I just described Ben Taylor, absent his injury history!)

[SkinBasket]

Barnett is not a difference maker. I stand by that. I consider him and Poppinga very similar players as far as total talent. Barnett is stronger in teh pass, Poppinga is stronger in teh run and has shown alot of improvement in the pass. When it comes to paying for an impact player; I'd pay Thomas and let Barnett go becuase I think there is a big gap in the two as far as on field impact goes.

WOW......not a big impact player? You mean a negative impact player like Popinga? Barnett is a leader on the field, Popinga better against the run? When? After Barnett has the guy wrapped up and Popinga finally gets there?

WHAT TEAM WHERE YOU WATCHING??

Actually after his first two games Poops was solid, Barnett gave up the second most plays of over 20 yds after Manual,that is not a stat you want a LB in the lead,some of it can of course be attributed to the fact the Packers pretty much never played dime last year Dendy did OK and the coaches thought it better to leave Hawk and Barnett out rather than another CB. If they address this and Barnett is still sucking in coverage my grade of above average will be way too kind. You guys look at tackles way too much even I could probably get 8-10 tackles a game if KGB was in front of me, he is nothing but a blanket the runners have too shove aside to get to the next level, put Barnett or Hawk behind Kampman and their tackles are less than half what they get now.

Poppinga was "solid" after the first two games? Dendy did "OK?" Barnett and Poppinga are the same talent-wise?

WTF people. If you're just going to start making shit up, at least try to include some semblance of reality in your nonsense. I mean, thanks for the laughs and everything, but either you fellas didn't actually watch the games last season or you have very very poor memories.