Packers want Adalius Thomas

[Zool]

Professor Left Wing is my mentor.

[Partial]

That's really dumb to assume racism. I am sure Wist would admit many of the top Playmakers are white, including Urlacher and Branning. Yes, I combined Tom Brady and Peyton Manning into the super-ultimate weapon.

Well, call me dumb, then, but I'm still waiting for what else separates him from other players who post the same kind of numbers but who are "difference makers" or "worthy" of going to the Pro Bowl other than skin color. Apparently it isn't production. It's not stats. Maybe it's because he isn't labeled an "Playmaker" in Madden? Or maybe it's how many commercials you do?

I'm not saying its necessarily racism. It could just as well be general ignorance or a penchant for repeating the idiotic ramblings of people like Stephan A Smith.

It's general ignorance perhaps. I don't see it as a matter of race.

I think the following ends are better:
Jason Taylor
Alex Brown
Richard Seymore
Ty Warren
John Abraham
Michael Strahan
Julius Peppers

[woodbuck27]

WOW ! Reading this thread almost wore me out.

Testosterone anyone?

Easy to see it's the offseason.

[SkinBasket]

I could care less about race, racism, or any other sociological measure...

In Kampman's case, I would argue that his 15.5 sacks were a statistical anomaly on the high side... I could see Kampman being a consistent 8-12 sack/yr guy... which is nothing to sneeze at. Kampman is a nice player, I'm glad we have him, but I like I said, I don't mistake him for being a difference maker.

You're still avoiding explaining why you feel he's not a "difference maker" or even what the hell a "difference maker" is in your mind. Is a pro bowl player with league leading numbers despite playing on what can only generously be described as an average D Line only a "difference maker" if he sells Chunky Soup?

All you say is that he's just not one because you think he's not as good as his numbers and honors make him out to be for some indeterminable reason other than you just think so. You'll have to excuse me if that isn't very convincing.

So please, do enlighten me. What is a "difference maker" and what, exactly, does Kampman lack that excludes him from this mysterious group?

[woodbuck27]

We saw Aaron Kampman step it up again last season (Re: his numbers) but we must consider this weighed against the lesser talented teams we faced in 2006 Vs previous seasons.

Our schedule will be tougher in 2007 and will give us a better measure of his progress.

Having said that.

I am pleased with Aaron Kampman's play year to year and feel he is one of OUR bona fide stars.

Arguments of a players star status and making the Pro Bowl are weakened, as the selections to a Pro Bowl are often as much a popularity poll as genuine merit.

[MJZiggy]

In Kampman's case, I would argue that his 15.5 sacks were a statistical anomaly on the high side... I could see Kampman being a consistent 8-12 sack/yr guy... which is nothing to sneeze at. Kampman is a nice player, I'm glad we have him, but I like I said, I don't mistake him for being a difference maker.

I don't understand why you would think that. If anything he had less incentive this past season to perform as he already has the big contract. He has consistently shown improvement throughout his career so what makes you believe he cannot maintain his improvement? There is as much, if not more, to indicate that he will than he won't.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think the following ends are better:
Jason Taylor
Alex Brown
Richard Seymore
Ty Warren
John Abraham
Michael Strahan
Julius Peppers

I'd easily take Kampman over Brown and Warren. Seymour is more of a DT to me. He would be in our scheme. Abraham can't stay healthy. Neither can Strahan, and he's 35 or 36 years old.

I don't think wist is racist, but I can see the Basket's point in a way. Groups get pigeon-holed. Kampman is more than just a try hard guy, but he'll always be known as that. The white guys are thought to be the unathletic, try hard guy. Generally, that may be true. It's hard to change that image, but you have to analyze each guy individually.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I don't understand why you would think that. If anything he had less incentive this past season to perform as he already has the big contract. He has consistently shown improvement throughout his career so what makes you believe he cannot maintain his improvement? There is as much, if not more, to indicate that he will than he won't.

Very few guys get 15 sacks year in and year out. Not even Strahan. So, when Kampman gets 10-12 sacks next year, wist can claim he's right.

[Partial]

I could care less about race, racism, or any other sociological measure...

In Kampman's case, I would argue that his 15.5 sacks were a statistical anomaly on the high side... I could see Kampman being a consistent 8-12 sack/yr guy... which is nothing to sneeze at. Kampman is a nice player, I'm glad we have him, but I like I said, I don't mistake him for being a difference maker.

You're still avoiding explaining why you feel he's not a "difference maker" or even what the hell a "difference maker" is in your mind. Is a pro bowl player with league leading numbers despite playing on what can only generously be described as an average D Line only a "difference maker" if he sells Chunky Soup?

All you say is that he's just not one because you think he's not as good as his numbers and honors make him out to be for some indeterminable reason other than you just think so. You'll have to excuse me if that isn't very convincing.

So please, do enlighten me. What is a "difference maker" and what, exactly, does Kampman lack that excludes him from this mysterious group?

DPOY candidates are playmakers. There, explanation done.

[wist43]

By your guys reckoning, Reggie White would not have been a difference maker in the years in which his sack totals were down...

A difference maker at DE has to, first and foremost, be able to consistently get the edge - Kampman can't do that.

Of course, being a "one trick pony" isn't enough... a difference maker has to be able to bull rush and redirect effectively. Kampman is a good bull rusher, and his redirect is ok - not great, but ok.

Against the run, Kampman is as good as anyone in the league - he's very stout at the point, disengages well, and gets down the line well... like I said, as good as anyone in the league.

Overall, Kampman is a very good DE... just not an elite DE.

To answer your question about what is a difference maker - at the DE position, a difference maker is going to be a guy that has all of the above mentioned abilities in spades. OC's have to game plan for them, throwing double and triple teams at him... and even then, we still expect the guy to put up double digit sack numbers.

Beyond that, a difference maker is going to make everyone around him better b/c of the extra attention he is receiving... Sean Jones never saw a double team his entire time in Green Bay, b/c OC's had to be concerned with Reggie White.

Kampman is infrequently double teamed or even chipped for that matter, and OC's really don't have to do anything special to plan for him. He's a nice player that can't be ignored, but he's certainly not a difference maker in the mold of Reggie White, or Michael Strahan, or Bruce Smith, or Julius Peppers.

Franchise DE's are just as hard to come by as are franchise QB's.

[esoxx]

I think the following ends are better:
Jason Taylor
Alex Brown
Richard Seymore
Ty Warren
John Abraham
Michael Strahan
Julius Peppers

Odd to not see Dwight Freeney on this list. I'd also put Burgess on it from Oakland. Cole from Philly is a guy to keep an eye on too. I agree with HW on the guys I wouldn't take over Kampman.

[PaCkFan_n_MD]

By your guys reckoning, Reggie White would not have been a difference maker in the years in which his sack totals were down...

A difference maker at DE has to, first and foremost, be able to consistently get the edge - Kampman can't do that.

Of course, being a "one trick pony" isn't enough... a difference maker has to be able to bull rush and redirect effectively. Kampman is a good bull rusher, and his redirect is ok - not great, but ok.

Against the run, Kampman is as good as anyone in the league - he's very stout at the point, disengages well, and gets down the line well... like I said, as good as anyone in the league.

Overall, Kampman is a very good DE... just not an elite DE.

To answer your question about what is a difference maker - at the DE position, a difference maker is going to be a guy that has all of the above mentioned abilities in spades. OC's have to game plan for them, throwing double and triple teams at him... and even then, we still expect the guy to put up double digit sack numbers.

Beyond that, a difference maker is going to make everyone around him better b/c of the extra attention he is receiving... Sean Jones never saw a double team his entire time in Green Bay, b/c OC's had to be concerned with Reggie White.

Kampman is infrequently double teamed or even chipped for that matter, and OC's really don't have to do anything special to plan for him. He's a nice player that can't be ignored, but he's certainly not a difference maker in the mold of Reggie White, or Michael Strahan, or Bruce Smith, or Julius Peppers.

Franchise DE's are just as hard to come by as are franchise QB's.

I agree. Kampman is very good and I love the way he plays, but he's not a top 5 DE in the league.

[esoxx]

Franchise DE's are just as hard to come by as are franchise QB's.

Yeah, but you seem to be moving the standards now. You started out saying Kamp wasn't Pro Bowl caliber this year despite his stellar play (backed up by stats of all things). Now we're getting comparisons to the games all time greats in Reggie White and Bruce Smith. No kidding Kampman doesn't measure up to them in terms of impact. I don't think anyone is under any illusion that Kamp is a Franchise DE. The beef seems to be your original asserstion he wasn't Pro-Bowl worthy this year.

That's where the shit began to hit the fan.

[SkinBasket]

Franchise DE's are just as hard to come by as are franchise QB's.

Yeah, but you seem to be moving the standards now. You started out saying Kamp wasn't Pro Bowl caliber this year despite his stellar play (backed up by stats of all things). Now we're getting comparisons to the games all time greats in Reggie White and Bruce Smith. No kidding Kampman doesn't measure up to them in terms of impact. I don't think anyone is under any illusion that Kamp is a Franchise DE. The beef seems to be your original asserstion he wasn't Pro-Bowl worthy this year.

That's where the shit began to hit the fan.

Well said esoxx.

So unless a player fits into this god-like mold for a DE that you've created, they are unworthy of pro-bowl honors and they must simply be overachieving to get the numbers he did? Seems to me you have a problem with HOW he produces results instead of the results themselves. Correct me if I assume too much, but you seem to be asserting that unless a player goes about "making a difference" - which I can only assume means producing favorable results which help his team win, in a very particular way, he isn't actually making the difference one would believe he is making.

In other words, yes, he's getting the sacks and the tackles, and (despite your claim otherwise), drawing double teams, but since he doesn't do it in a particular fashion, or as the result of outstanding strength and technique, then it doesn't matter, or it matters less?

[wist43]

I guess I have a higher standard of what a pro bowler should be... but, since the pro bowl is relative to the pool of players you can draw from, my higher standard can't apply.

I choose to give as honest an evaluation of a player as I can... most fans can't stand to hear anything negative, or realistic about their team or its players.

Myself, I have a hard time being critical of Favre... that same sentiment seems to extend, for some fans, to every player on the team.

Homerism is one thing, Texism is another thing altogether.