Griffith signs with Raiders

[Patler]

I think your making Green to be more than he was but we'll see once the season starts. My biggest question so far is how did TT allow Griffith to sign in Oakland?

I wonder if it was just about money. The new OC in Oakland coached Griffith in Atlanta. I wonder if that may have been a factor.

Of course not! Don't you realize that EVERY NFL player would chose to play in Green Bay if ONLY Ted Thompson would give them the chance to!

[SD GB fan]

I think your making Green to be more than he was but we'll see once the season starts. My biggest question so far is how did TT allow Griffith to sign in Oakland?

I wonder if it was just about money. The new OC in Oakland coached Griffith in Atlanta. I wonder if that may have been a factor.

Of course not! Don't you realize that EVERY NFL player would chose to play in Green Bay if ONLY Ted Thompson would give them the chance to!

yeah, the cold weather is really attractive, i hear.

[the_idle_threat]

Well, here is the proof St. Lou was right. There really is a "clique" in here.

Funny how all I did was respond to Idle using the same language and credentials he had and you are all picking on me but not him.

WHY?

Simple

"The mob" agrees with him.

Even Bretsky.... Well, I expected better but not surprised.

Sounds like "the mob" mostly agrees with you, professor ( ), in substance if not in style. They're not out to get you.

And the funny thing is, I mostly agree with you too, in substance but definitely not in style. It seems we both agree that TT would have had to overpay to keep Green (given the rational value---or value range ---that should be placed on a player with Green's talent given his age, recent production, injury history, etc.). And we both seem to agree that TT probably should have overpaid to keep Green, given the team's needs at running back, and Green's goodwill value in the community.

We differ where you seem to think that when TT decided Ahman's ultimate asking price was too high, then TT is an idiot who has not done his homework. I give TT the benefit of the doubt that he has stuck to a fair value. Funny thing is, with your apparent background, you should understand TT's side of things better than anybody. You're arguing against your own common sense.

Consider this: Say you spend an appropriate amount of time estimating the value of a business, by examining assets, sales, expenses, cash flow, overall market, competition, etc., and you arrive at a number (or a range ). Wouldn't you be pissed if a bunch of railbirds who just read about the business in the paper, or live near it, or maybe even shop there, called you an idiot because in their opinion the business is worth a whole lot more?

How is this different than our criticism of TT? He has a scouting staff and coaches and cap people at his disposal that allow him to make a pretty thorough analysis of any player's projected value. It's pretty pretentious to believe we know better than him because we read the newspaper and internet message boards, and we play fantasy football.

And by the way, if you have the credentials you claim in economics, then you know that the winner's curse is not something I just made up. It's a valid concern in an auction market, and I'm certainly not the first to link it to free agency in sports.

My point is that since bidders tend to overpay in an auction market (free agency), they need to mostly avoid the auction market (build from within and sign their own developing players before they get to the open market), and when they do participate, be strategic about who to overpay and when so that they maximize the value of their allotted dollars. Isn't that the whole point of economics, professor? To allocate finite resources in order to maximize utility?

With half-a-dozen holes on the roster that need to be filled, TT is wise to avoid charging into bidding wars in the first week of free agency, where he will overpay to fill maybe two or three holes and then be stuck against the cap. There are other high-mileage running backs on the market (or soon to be on the market) who will sign for a lot less than $8 million in 2007: Dillon, Droughns, Mike Anderson all come to mind. Two of them even have a history of success in the ZBS. The offseason is young. TT's time to improve the roster has not yet run out.

[KYPack]

Well, two of the big "clique" guys in here, Bretsky and I, have your exact same view, and have been spending the last several days defending our positions. I haven't defended you or supported anybody else because I generally try to stay out of those all together--although I haven't always been perfect doing so.

RG, I don't think there is a "clique," but if there was one, I'd consider you a part of it.

there is a clique. perhaps I was a part of it. i won't be any longer.

My point was that NO ONE defended me. NO ONE. KYPack seemingly tried about a week ago, but followed his half hearted defense with "I'm sick of his crap too". Whatever...

Hold the phone, RG.

I did defend you, mainly because you were lumped into a lunatic fringe reference with another poster that doesn't have a lot of crediblity.

I happen to think you are a knowlegeable Packer fans who has:

A Some unpopular ideas which are valid.
B Some crazy notions that don't hold any water.

You will defend both kinds of ideas ad nauseum and continue to bleat on no matter how much evidence to the contrary is presented.

And hey, that's OK. I've been on Forums that are pretty homogenous in their ideas, and those Forums are boring.

A good Forum has different kinds of posters and different philosophies.

You are a contrarian and contrarians are good for any forum.

But, they have to have a helluva lot thicker skin than you seem to possess.

So be a contrarian, but toughen up.

There ain't no mob.

You know the difference between a crowd and a mob?

A mob has a leader.

PS, KGB is an overpaid mistake

PSS, This thread does NOT blow.

[woodbuck27]

Before we all count to three and jump at the same time..... let's actually hold on til we find out how much Thompson offerred the guy. Every time a player goes somewhere else it's not because the money was better. Usually but not always. Vinatieri went to Indy because he wanted to win, not because the Packers didn't make a high offer. Let's just wait and see what comes out here. Mabye the Packers made a nice pitch but Griffith decided that he'd rather play in Oakland if the money is close?

'' Let's just wait and see what comes out here. Mabye the Packers made a nice pitch but Griffith decided that he'd rather play in Oakland if the money is close? '' gureski

Griffith signed with Oakland.Not a powerhouse.

[Zool]

Wow....just plain wow. I'm taking my ball and I'm going home.

If we want to stop new people from coming here we should have more threads like this whiny bitch session. It would do just the trick.

[woodbuck27]

'' If you think this 34 year old FB was one of the keys to this year's season turning out then be mad. If not, don't act outraged just to do it. It's getting old. '' guerski

He's not 34 years old.

# 33 Justin Griffith Position: FB Height: 5-11 Weight: 232
Born: 04/13/1981 College: Mississippi State NFL Experience: 5

[woodbuck27]

I stand corrected in the age department but my overall point still stands. People are just frothing with negativity right now and every day its' a different player. I can see why some people would be pissed about the FB position and why they'd feel it's key but I haven't actually heard anyone say that and say why they feel it was such a key signing. It's just one big pile-on party right now and it's been going on for days every time a guy gets signed. It's getting old.

What's getting old is the pathological blind defenses of Ted's offseason. Your lines are the ones getting old. This team is not improving. AT ALL.

THERE IS ZERO REASON for this. Unless you're on the 2009 plan.

You and Woodbuck I tell ya..For some reason humans just LOVE negativity I guess..That must be why the first thing on the nightly news on a daily basis is death and destruction, not anything positive. People love it..

Just exactly what has Ted Thompson done for OUR team of late (in free agency») that's positive to respond to with praise imscott72?

This forum is composed of people who can study what is going on and make rational analysis and resposes to either agree or otherwise with Ted Thompson's manner and approach to being OUR teams GM.

This is a forum or a form of the democratic process.

For any member to reduce it by making personal atttacks by calling out any member by name isn't proper behaviour imscott72.

If you don't like a member because of his or her stances. Debate the stance but don't attempt to win the membership to your side or view by calling member's out.

Defend your positions otherwise please.

Again.

If you don't like reading my critiques of Ted Thompson simply ignore my posts. I feel that's an acceptable, fair and mature response.

Now. I must say it's really very sad to see Ted Thompson dig his own grave with a lack of flexibility and a common sense approach towards making us competitive in 2007.

[gureski]

'' If you think this 34 year old FB was one of the keys to this year's season turning out then be mad. If not, don't act outraged just to do it. It's getting old. '' guerski

He's not 34 years old.

# 33 Justin Griffith Position: FB Height: 5-11 Weight: 232
Born: 04/13/1981 College: Mississippi State NFL Experience: 5

Please.... Read the posts before you start replying to stuff that's already been hashed over. I know he's not 34. I was thinking of the other FB in Atlanta from the past few years, McCrary. McCrary is 34. I admitted my mistake in that. The real issue that I was broaching was the rush to riot every time a player is signed somewhere else.

Within hours of the the word unofficially leaking about the Oakland deal with Griffith, guys were forming a 'mob' and calling for Thompson to be fired. Nobody knew anything for sure or how things happened but the 'mob' was coming for Thompson and his dog. It was a 'shoot first and ask questions later' mentality in here.

I called for some common sense to be reinjected into things. We were, as a group, getting impatient and jumping the gun with unsubstantiated negative criticism. That was happening. Missing one free agent is not grounds for termination. A GM's record of success over 10 days of free agency is not a legitimate amount of time to evaluate his performance. As fans, we are at the mercy of leaks and news reports. We don't know who is being contacted and who isn't. We don't know who has been in for visits or who has been invited to visits and declined. We don't know who was offerred contracts or for how much and how many years and we certainly have no idea (within hours of a deal being leaked) why some players choose other teams over G.B.. We don't know any of that and it needed to be said. Some guys were going overboard with negativity based on nothing more then their own impatient speculation. That kind of self-generating negativity does nothing for anyone, including the people posting it.

I think we're all back on track. I saw a couple of signings this weekend and did not witness the negative revolt that I had seen over the week prior. I think people have their bearings again. It's not about whether you like what's happening or not, it's about just keeping things in perspective so we can have legitimate debate over things. In a legitimate debate about Ted Thompson you would not point to a lack of signings over the first 10 days of free agency as reason for termination. (not unless you wanted the guy fired to begin with). In a normal conversation you would not scream for the GM to be fired just because he missed out on one single free agent FB. You could be pissed but common sense tells you that you should judge someone on their overall results, not one player. You can have a feeling about things but again, you wouldn't actually rush to the board and declare the upcoming season a failure because the first 10 days of a weak free agent class didn't produce a signing. That's crazy. How can you have legitimate debate when the premise is is anything but legitimate? That's all my intent was. You can agree that things were getting out of hand or not. It doesn't matter. I think the moment has passed.

[prsnfoto]

YOu said we don't have a RB and I've heard multiple people say that but I wonder how different you consider Morency to be then W.Dunn?

With the ZBS, you don't need a RB that is pile driving through guys. YOu need a quick RB with good feet and instincts that can recognize holes and burst through.

The reason Morency has real potential is his speed and quickness. He's in the W.Dunn mold. If Dunn can do it with his limited size then why is it unrealistic to think Morency can possibly be that kind of RB? He has flashed some positive things.

Morency has been in 3 different offense's in 2 years! He came to the Packers after a year in Houston under Capers and then had training camp under Kubiak's offense before finally getting traded to G.B. to learn McCarthy's offense! 3 different offensive schemes in 2 years is alot for a young RB.

Morency has flashed some ability. He's not a power guy but that's okay. You can get another RB to be the change of pace guy and power back. The key here is that Morency has real potential. He may ultimately flop but many have given up on him prematurely. What he brings to the table fits the ZBS.

Morency's biggest challenge is staying healthy. That's what I'm most skeptical about but he's not so often injured that he should be considered unreliable. The jury is truly still out on the guy. This coming year will be the biggest of his career. It will make him or break him.

He can't handle it all himself and he's not the kind of back that A.Green was but that's the hidden point that nobody is talking about. The offense changed. We don't need a RB that plays like A.Green did to succeed in the running game in McCarthy's offense. A Morency could fill the bill. YOu have to look at the scheme being run here and match the RB up with it. Some RB's transcend scheme and can play anywhere. I see Morency as a guy who is physically suited for the ZBS. He's a legitimate option to lead the team in rushing. He will need a mate who can handle the tough yardage but overall, Morency could be another W.Dunn type player. The potential is there. It's valid. You guys should stop saying there is nothing left. We have at least one valid option. It's not a sure-thing but it's a valid option.

your whole point is based on the OL being suitable. the OL did not play well until the final few games of the year. Not PROOF by my standard. Green gained those yards last year largely on his own.

Morency will not do that. EVER.

It MIGHT be a valid option or might not.... we'll see cause he's all we've got.

So what are you saying the line didn't block for Ahman and did for Morency? Because he had a better per rush average,one half the yards on 40% of the carries, and twice as many explosive runs. Look your'e a smart guy and we always seem to butt heads mainly because I don't share your Sherman love and now Ahman Green love. I liked Green but to use statements like never ever is nuts you may be right, I may be right ( I don't think we will miss Ahman as far as productivity on the field) we will all find out soon enough.

[woodbuck27]

I have a BS Degree

I'm a BullShit artist and pretty dang good at it....

I'm a longtime Packer fan that can see the beginning of an off season that points in the direction of a losing season in 2007.

I'm surprized that Justin Griffith signed the contract he did with Oakland (only two seasons at not a ton of money) and that Ted Thompson couldn't offer him more incentive to sign with us.

Maybe Ted forgot to tell him to call him before signing a better offer? Maybe Ted forgot to make him any offer?

Did we absolutely need Justin Griffith?

NO !

I don't believe we should insist that TT sign many players. It's certainly fair to insist that Ted Thompson makes sensable moves overall in the offseason to allow us to advance in this season over last.

I don't believe that there is one member of this forum that revels over negativity or presumed failure on Ted Thompson's part.

With some $23 million under the CAP - the question is. Why did Justin Griffith go to Oakland when he appears now to have been a solid fit and affordable as well?

Ted Thompson will get criticism for this issue and the painful thing for this Packer fan is that it appears that he doesn't give a DAM.

It only appears that way.

Ted Thompson will be judged based on results in 2007. No rational Packer fan hopes that we are embarassed in this season or suffer a setback.

If 'in fact' we do just that.Are embarassed on the field I believe that Ted Thompson's days in Green Bay are about over.

I'm just a Packer fan. For me to call for him to be fired doesn't carry any weight. So why go there?

Yet. The collective fan reaction to his ways, certainly has a bearing on his future as GM.

[woodbuck27]

[quote="gureski"]

'' If you think this 34 year old FB was one of the keys to this year's season turning out then be mad. If not, don't act outraged just to do it. It's getting old. '' guerski

He's not 34 years old.

# 33 Justin Griffith Position: FB Height: 5-11 Weight: 232
Born: 04/13/1981 College: Mississippi State NFL Experience: 5

'' Please.... Read the posts before you start replying to stuff that's already been hashed over. I know he's not 34. '' guerski

I apologize to you for that guerski.

I'm not taking you on personally guerski, or otherwise attempting to demean you. That's not my style.

When I made that post I read more than one of your posts that referred to Justin Griffith as being 34 years of age.In fact I had to check to ensure otherwise.

I should have read further through this thread. I've done that and it's HOT.

[gureski]

The issue revolves around whether or not it's accurate to look at Morency as a valid option. Some people have tied themselves to doom and gloom at the RB spot so much so that to admit Morency is a valid option....just to say he's a valid option....hurts their credability. If Morency is a valid option then it makes letting Green go less offensive. That's all this is about. Based on the same criteria that we judge players with all the time, Morency is a valid option at RB.

Last year and years prior, people looked at N.Davenport as a valid option for RB. S.Gado was looked upon as a valid option at RB. Some of the same people saying Morency is 'nothing' or not a valid option probably took different stances on Davenport and Gado. Why would that be? Morency was the 9th pick in the third round from just 2 years ago. He's got great speed and athletic ability. He's flashed promise when given the opportunity to play. Why would he not be considered a valid option?

Morency is more then just a warm body. He has real potential. Why can't some of you admit that? It's not crazy. It's substantiated by fact and his past performance. Nobody is pushing you to say he's going to be the answer. Just admit that he's a viable option. That's all. The cupboard isn't bare. There is at least one option sitting there.

[gureski]

[quote="woodbuck27"]

'' If you think this 34 year old FB was one of the keys to this year's season turning out then be mad. If not, don't act outraged just to do it. It's getting old. '' guerski

He's not 34 years old.

# 33 Justin Griffith Position: FB Height: 5-11 Weight: 232
Born: 04/13/1981 College: Mississippi State NFL Experience: 5

Please.... Read the posts before you start replying to stuff that's already been hashed over. I know he's not 34.

I apologize to you for that.

I'm not taking you on personally guerski, or otherwise attempting to demean you. That's not my style.

When I made that post I read more than one of your posts that referred to Justin Griffith as being 34 years of age.In fact I had to check to ensure otherwise.

I should have read further through this thread. I've done that and it's HOT.

No need for the apologies. I just didnt' want to rehash stuff that already had been gone over. I know you're not attacking me. I don't mind a negative comment when it's warranted. I was wrong on the age thing and deserved the flak I got from it. Don't apologize.

[woodbuck27]

''I called for some common sense to be reinjected into things. We were, as a group, getting impatient and jumping the gun with unsubstantiated negative criticism. That was happening. Missing one free agent is not grounds for termination. A GM's record of success over 10 days of free agency is not a legitimate amount of time to evaluate his performance. As fans, we are at the mercy of leaks and news reports. We don't know who is being contacted and who isn't. We don't know who has been in for visits or who has been invited to visits and declined. We don't know who was offerred contracts or for how much and how many years and we certainly have no idea (within hours of a deal being leaked) why some players choose other teams over G.B.. We don't know any of that and it needed to be said. Some guys were going overboard with negativity based on nothing more then their own impatient speculation. That kind of self-generating negativity does nothing for anyone, including the people posting it.

I think we're all back on track. I saw a couple of signings this weekend and did not witness the negative revolt that I had seen over the week prior. I think people have their bearings again. It's not about whether you like what's happening or not, it's about just keeping things in perspective so we can have legitimate debate over things. In a legitimate debate about Ted Thompson you would not point to a lack of signings over the first 10 days of free agency as reason for termination. (not unless you wanted the guy fired to begin with). In a normal conversation you would not scream for the GM to be fired just because he missed out on one single free agent FB. You could be pissed but common sense tells you that you should judge someone on their overall results, not one player. You can have a feeling about things but again, you wouldn't actually rush to the board and declare the upcoming season a failure because the first 10 days of a weak free agent class didn't produce a signing. That's crazy. How can you have legitimate debate when the premise is is anything but legitimate? That's all my intent was. You can agree that things were getting out of hand or not. It doesn't matter. I think the moment has passed.'' guerski

Are you directing any of this at me?

I have never posted in this off season that I felt that Ted Thompson should be FIRED for doing or not doing anything.