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Originally posted by Anti-Polar Bear
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More thanks or blame for 4-12 lies with Mike Sherman that TT. Thompson is showing he knows how to put together a football team.GO PACK!!!! -
Isn't it kinda futile to rank QBs after a certain point? I tend to think of it this way: there is a pantheon of great NFL QBs, and only a few guys belong there. Favre absolutely belongs there, as do greats throughout the leagues history.
It's a very select ticket, but once you're in, you're all on equal ground.Comment
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As Brett Favre approaches this weekend and his assault on Dan Marino’s all-time record, we are heaping praise on the stellar Packer quarterback. And rightfully so. Favre has been an icon in Green Bay for going on 17 years. No one is more deserving of the accolades.
Because of Favre’s expected record-breaking performance on Sunday, we engage in the “Who’s the Best Quarterback of All Time” game. Lists of the top five or top ten NFL quarterbacks are as common this week as grocery lists on refrigerators. These lists are of questionable merit, but they are fun. And they all seem to have many names in common: Montana, Marino, Elway, Unitas and, yes, Favre. But these lists also have in common one name which is notable by its absence, or in this case, by it's distance from the top.
Bart Starr played 16 years in Green Bay. His greatness is chronicled in the article below.
I didn’t make this post and include the article below to take anything away from Brett Favre. I’m his biggest fan. But in this week of commemorating great quarterbacks I think it’s appropriate to remind all football fans -- national and local, young and old -- that Brett Favre is not the only Green Bay Packer quarterback who deserves to be numbered among the best to ever have played the game. Indeed, I would argue that Bart Starr might be the best quarterback ever to have played the game in Green Bay.
Why is Starr consistently overlooked by fans and media alike. Allen Barra covers some possible reasons in his article. But I think one big reason Starr is overlooked – at least among loyal Packer fans – is his mediocre nine year tenure as coach and general manager of the team. Perhaps, if Starr had appeared in just a fraction as many post season games as a coach as he had a player, his reputation as a player would be undiminished.
But I don’t hold Starr’s coaching failures against his sterling record as a Packer quarterback. He was one of the best signal callers ever, in Green Bay or anywhere else. Brett Favre will shine in glory on the field and in the media this weekend. But today, as of this moment, I agree with Barra. Bart Starr is the best ever…
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The greatest quarterback of all time,
Overlooked by most polls, the best person to ever take a snap in the NFL is Bart Starr.
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By Allen Barra
Dec. 5, 2001 | Last week I wrote that in the NFL, good passing beats good running, and I think I got a nasty e-mail from every reader who ever played high school football. Please, no more "My coach has 35 years' worth of experience and he says ..." e-mails! I know what your coach said; that's why he's still a high school coach.
And, please, no more with "Your theory ..." What I've done is taken 40 years of accumulated football wisdom and tried to cull some lessons from it. So, I'm pleased to see I have a lot of readers. And I'm sure to get a lot more nasty e-mails when I weigh in on the oldest of pro football debates: Who is the best quarterback of all time?
Depends. Are you talking best athlete, most potential, most career value? I'm never sure what someone else is asking, but I know what I want. For instance, is the "best" quarterback the one you want playing for your team in the big game? If it is, then the end-of-century polls have got it all wrong: The best quarterback in pro football history isn't Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas or Otto Graham or Dan Marino or John Elway. If by best you mean most likely to win championships, then the man you want in back of your center is Bart Starr.
Why do I have to go back 30-some years to pick my best quarterback? Well, for starters, it's the last time in football when they were full, complete players, as God and Vince Lombardi intended them to be. Unlike the generation that followed, '60s quarterbacks weren't automatons, mere "snap-takers" acting out the orders of sideline brain trusts.
Quarterbacks were expected to help conceive and carry out game plans, and call their own plays. Bart Starr did this better than any quarterback he played against and perhaps better than anyone ever. Starting with the last four games of the 1959 season through a handful of injury-riddled
appearances in 1969, Starr posted a standard of clutch performances in big games unmatched in NFL history.
To appreciate Starr's greatness it's necessary to look beyond the popular measurements for quarterbacks. Early in 1974, while previewing the Miami Dolphins-Minnesota Vikings Super Bowl, pioneer football analyst Bud Goode revealed that yards per throw -- just plain yards gained passing divided by the number of throws -- was pro football's premier statistic, the one that correlated best with winning. Goode quipped that he wanted the inscription on his headstone to read "Here lies Bud Goode: He told the world about yards per throw."
A quarter of a century later the football world has yet to fully absorb Goode's wisdom, even though great NFL coaches have always instinctively known it: Over four decades, from Johnny Unitas' sudden-death victory over the New York Giants to last year's Super Bowl, only one team, Bill Parcells' 1996 New England Patriots, has played for the NFL championship while failing to average more yards per throw on offense than it gave up on defense. Over the last 20 years, the team that averaged the highest number of yards per throw in a game has won more than 80 percent of the time. And interception percentage, the ratio of interceptions per 100 passes, ranked just slightly behind yards per throw as an indicator of offensive strength. (Pass completion percentage was relatively unimportant; one-of-three completed for 10 yards beats two-of-three for nine yards every time.)
Starr dominated these passing stats in the 1960s. His career interception percentage is the lowest of any passer in the decade, and his yards-per-pass mark of 7.85 is better than that of a score of quarterbacks who are generally regarded as among the best in history, including Dan Marino (7.37), Joe Montana (7.52), Roger Staubach (7.67), Dan Fouts (7.68), Sonny Jurgensen (7.56), Fran Tarkenton (7.27), Y.A. Tittle (7.52), Terry Bradshaw (7.17) and Joe Namath (7.35).
And then, there is clutch performance. In 1960 the Western Conference Green Bay Packers lost to the Eastern leader, the Philadelphia Eagles, in the NFL championship game, 17-13. It was to be the first and last big game he ever lost.
In 1961 and again in 1962, the Packers faced the New York Giants in the NFL championship game. Both team's rosters were littered with All Pros, many of them future Hall of Famers. The most prominent Giant was the balding veteran quarterback Y.A. Tittle, who was enjoying the first two years of an amazing three-season run in which he would throw 86 touchdown passes in 41 games. But in frozen Green Bay on New Year's Eve in 1961, and then the following year on Dec. 30 in an even more frozen Yankee Stadium, Starr was 19 of 38 for 249 yards, nearly 6.5 yards per pass, while Tittle was able to complete just 24 of 61 passes for 262 yards, just a little over five yards a throw. Tittle failed to throw a touchdown pass in either game and was picked off five times; Starr had three touchdown passes with no interceptions. The Packers won both games by a combined score of 53-7.
The totals don't seem impressive by today's standards, but championship games in Starr's era weren't played under domes or in palm tree country. It's difficult for today's fans to appreciate the hardship quarterbacks faced trying to put together an offensive attack on sheets of ice or frozen slush. Many of Starr's great performances came under conditions so horrendous that other fine passers were completely nullified. In 1968, in perhaps the most famous pro football game of all time, Don Meredith was completely ineffective in Green Bay's sub-zero temperature, gaining just 59 yards on 25 passes. Starr threw 24 times for 191 yards as the Packers won their third straight title and fifth in seven years.
In nine postseason games against the best defenses in the National Football League -- and at the cap of the 1966 and '67 seasons, the American Football League -- Starr bettered his career averages in yards per throw and interception rate.
Why isn't Starr's star higher on the list of all those fans and writers who voted in these all-century polls? The only logical answer I can think of is that Vince Lombardi's shadow was so huge it made Starr seem like a mere appendage. Starr finished his career throwing nearly 2,000 fewer passes than his great rival, Johnny Unitas, for just 24,718 yards to Unitas's 40,234 (their career yards per pass average was identical, 7.8). From 1965 through 1967, Starr and the Packers won six consecutive postseason games en route to three championships, and in five of those the first Green Bay touchdown came on a pass from Starr.
Green Bay's image as a running team, exemplified by the title of Lombardi's book with W.C. Heinz, "Run to Daylight," was so strong that it overcame reality. In both 1961 and 1962, the Packers, paced by fullback Jim Taylor and halfback Paul Hornung, led the league in both rushing yards and yards per carry, and Starr's gaudy passing stats were regarded as a byproduct of the running game. But by the mid-'60s the Packers' running game had faded badly -- in 1965, Green Bay was 11th among 14 teams in yards per rush, and in '66 they were next to last -- and Starr's passing statistics got better. In 1966, his best season, he threw for 14 touchdowns against just three interceptions and averaged an amazing nine yards per throw.
Starr also played in the shadow of his great rival, John Unitas. From 1958 to 1968, 11 seasons, either the Green Bay Packers or Baltimore Colts went to the NFL championship game in every season but one, 1963. In five of the nine years both men threw enough passes to qualify, Starr was ranked higher than Unitas by the NFL's system, and in five of those nine seasons, Starr had a higher yards-per-pass average than Unitas. There is a tendency among football writers and historians to write off Starr's domination of Unitas as evidence of the Packers' superiority, but in fact from 1960 to 1969, Starr's last season as a starter, the Packers were 96-37-5 to the Colts' 92-42-4 -- exactly the edge the Packers held over the Colts in head-to-head competition.
Even when Johnny Unitas and the Colts were good, Bart Starr and the Packers were better. In 1967 Unitas was the NFL's player of the year, and the 11-0-2 Colts played the 10-1-2 Los Angeles Rams for their division's playoff spot; the Rams, with their great defensive line, "The Fearsome Foursome," crushed Unitas and the Colts 34-10. Shortly afterward, in the first round of the playoffs, Starr quarterbacked a masterpiece, completing 17 of 23 passes for 222 yards as the Packers trounced those same Rams 28-7, going from there to beat Dallas and then Oakland in the Super Bowl. Bart Starr won on the field, but history has reversed the decision and given Unitas the wins in the popularity polls. No matter; all the polls in the world can't take those rings away.
From: http://archive.salon.com/news/sports...arr/index.htmlOne time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
John Maxymuk, Packers By The NumbersComment
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I like Bart, but I'm sure people in Dallas (Aikman) and Pittsburgh (Bradshaw) say the same things. We aren't talking about team success, but individual greatness. There's no question Starr played with many more great players (a couple of Hall of Famers at RB, some Hall of Famers in the OL, and one of the better defenses of all-time for much of his career).
Starr was clutch. No question. I don't think it's an insult to Starr to rank Favre higher--just like I don't think it's an insult to Favre to rank Elway higher. Somebody made a good point of tiers being a better system--because it's hard to rank guys from different eras.
How many Hall of Famers did Starr play with? Favre played with three Hall of Fame caliber players--Reggie White, Sterling Sharpe, and LeRoy Butler."There's a lot of interest in the draft. It's great. But quite frankly, most of the people that are commenting on it don't know anything about what they are talking about."--Ted ThompsonComment
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That's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg argument, Harvey. Would the Packers have been the Championship team they were without Starr, a Hall of Famer himself? I don't think so. Was it the team that made Starr or Starr that helped make the team? I think it was Starr. All those Hall of Fame players didn't do a whole lot until Starr started as QB.Originally posted by HarveyWallbangersOne time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
John Maxymuk, Packers By The NumbersComment
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Damn, when I first saw this thread I thought Tank had come back.
Alas, it was months ago that the post took place."I've got one word for you- Dallas, Texas, Super Bowl"- Jermichael FinleyComment
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Good list Harv.Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers
Missed this one the first time thru.
I'd go like this:
1 Johnny Unitas
2 Joe Montana
3 Otto Graham
4 John Elway
5 Brett Favre
6 Dan Marino
7 Peyton Manning
8 Bart Starr
9 Tom Brady
10 Terry Bradshaw
11 Fran Tarkenton
12 Steve Young
13 Sammy Baugh
14 Troy Aikman
15 Roger Staubach
A real Packer freak would toss Arnie Herber in here someplace, but honestly, the guy had a cannon.
Sammy Baugh has to be in any all-time 15. He had as good an arm as player on this list. He won the rings to match his talent and was an effective QB for 16 years and played for 17 seasons.Comment
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Brett Favre is the greatest QB to ever step on a football field. No other QB has even come close to retaining his high level of play that he has exhibited all these years. A few breaks here and there, and he could have four Superbowl rings. If he wins one more, it's not even worth discussing. The man is an ironman, plays through every injury possible at a high level, no other QB can boast having only ONE losing season his entire career, and half our team was hurt that year. and we were about 15 points from being 8-8 that year. What he is doing this year is one of, if not the greatest feat in all of football. He looks like the best QB in the game and is throwing every type of pass dead on the money, still scrambling in the pocket avoiding sacks. Marino ahead of him, jesus, he could'nt even walk his last three seasons. Montana had a ridiculous amount of talent around him year in and year out. Elway, how is he better, cuz Davis won him a Superbowl against us? He sure didn't win it for them. Our defense couldn't handle the run game, and we still almost beat them. Plus, Favre's numbers are much better than Elways. Two very similar QB's but I give the edge to Brett.
The older guys, who knows. But Bart Starr had almost as many picks as he did touchdown passes. Brett to me, when you take in everything he can do, is the more complete player than anyone else in these lists. I'm a homer, kiss my ass."...one thing about me during the course of a game, I get emotional and say things my grandmother lets me know about later. But nobody wants to win on that field anymore than I do, no one." Brett FavreComment
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I agree completely.Originally posted by oregonpackfanWho Knows? The Shadow knows!Comment
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Who knows. I can't say that I watched anybody before about 1980.Originally posted by Maxie the Taxi"There's a lot of interest in the draft. It's great. But quite frankly, most of the people that are commenting on it don't know anything about what they are talking about."--Ted ThompsonComment
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Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers
You lack perspective Harv....
Shit, that year Rashad caught a hail mary against the Browns to send the Vikes into the playoffs. I just moved out on my own and leaped over the coffee table with popcorn and beer flying everywhere.
oops....I digress.......LOL......Comment
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Of course, none of those Hall Of Famers, including Starr, did anything until Lombardi showed up. Starr was the perfect extension of Lombardi on the field, and that alone makes him great. It certainly is true that in 1966 with the Packers running game not as dominant as it once was, Starr was able to pick up more of the offensive load. I've always debated whether the Packers were a very talented team that underachieved pre-Lombardi, or whether they were a reasonably talented team that overachieved with Lombardi.Originally posted by Maxie the TaxiI can't run no more
With that lawless crowd
While the killers in high places
Say their prayers out loud
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
A thundercloud
They're going to hear from me - Leonard CohenComment
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To your last point, in my opinion BOTH are true. No doubt the team had many talented individuals, but it also had many average players. Lombardi brought the best out of all of them and got them all to overachieve. It's what a superb coach does.Originally posted by Joemailman
Starr is a perfect example. He was nothing special coming out of college. Just average. Drafted in the 17th round, I think. He learned to overachieve. Or, better stated, learned to give 110% each and every time he took the field.
Lombardi was mostly about attitude and commitment, more than talent. He knew what made the difference between a championship team and all the rest was will -- his teams wanted the win more than the other guys.
I think McCarthy understands that too. I've heard him say many times he wants players with character before anything else. I think he'd rather have a team of young men like Greg Jennnings and James Jones than a veteran group of prima donnas like Randy Moss and Terrell Owen.One time Lombardi was disgusted with the team in practice and told them they were going to have to start with the basics. He held up a ball and said: "This is a football." McGee immediately called out, "Stop, coach, you're going too fast," and that gave everyone a laugh.
John Maxymuk, Packers By The NumbersComment
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Bart Starr had approximately 9 more touchdown passes than interceptions. Check those numbers against Bretts touchdowns vs. interceptions. Was Start going against better defenses? Yeah right. If Starr had to go against teams like the Chargers and Bears, he would be eaten alive."...one thing about me during the course of a game, I get emotional and say things my grandmother lets me know about later. But nobody wants to win on that field anymore than I do, no one." Brett FavreComment
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Who is Otto Graham? Kind of sad that #1 on HW's list and #2 on KFC's list I have never heard of.Comment
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