Tank?

[Bretsky]

Tank,

We barely have enough cap space left to sign our rookies. What the hell are you talking about?

Are you saying that Woodson's new contract is wholly front loaded and he will eat up $19 mil this year?

Tell me, as I havent check yet.

From the sounds of it the deal is frontloaded; remember of that 19MIL we need 7-8 MIL for the rookie cap.

[RashanGary]

I know Bretsky. I'm baiting Tank into saying that so I can shove it back in his face. He's been claiming that there was no way to save for tomorrow by paying for your guys today when that is exactly what Thompson just did.

Tank made a big thread calling me out. He stated that I did not know what I was talking about and that there was no way to save for the future. Thompson just proved once again that Tank doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

There are ways to essentially save for the future and ways to borrow from it. Tank is well versed in how to borrow from it. He calls it creative cap structuring but he's completely oblivious to it when it’s done the other way.

[RashanGary]

From what I understand Tank there is no signing bonus to push the $$ off into future years. From what I understand it eats up 10.5 million this year. We have about 8.5 to go.

[RashanGary]

8.5 - 7 = 1.5

[Joemailman]

Tank,

We barely have enough cap space left to sign our rookies. What the hell are you talking about?

Are you saying that Woodson's new contract is wholly front loaded and he will eat up $19 mil this year?

Tell me, as I havent check yet.

We need money to sign our draft picks, Tank. Or do you think TT should trade all the draft picks for Donovan Darius?

[RashanGary]

LOL..

[CyclonePackFan]

Tank,

We barely have enough cap space left to sign our rookies. What the hell are you talking about?

Are you saying that Woodson's new contract is wholly front loaded and he will eat up $19 mil this year?

Tell me, as I havent check yet.

Woodson is guaranteed $10.5 mil this year. That would appear to leave us with approximately 8.5 mil under the cap. Take away $6 mil to sign rookies, and we're now at $2.5 mil remaining under the cap. That would be nowhere near enough to sign another pro-bowl calibur player. On the flip side, if Woodson doesn't turn out, we can cut him without incurring a huge loss in the future.

However, I took a look at PackerChatters' cap estimate, and it would appear we have a little over $13 mil remaining with Woodson factored in. I think they might alter it once the full details of the contract become available. IF this is accurate, I think TT plans on using that last $8 mil to grant contract extensions at the end of the year. Almost everybody we've signed this year, Green, Davenport, Cundiff, Taylor, Gardner, Boerigter, and Allen, have been to one-year deals, and factor in that Gado, Cole, Jenkins, Leach, and a handful of others are on the last year of their contract, it might be wise to keep some money around, especially if Green returns to form.

[CyclonePackFan]

DAMMIT while I was orchestrating that post just about everything I noted had already been said....early bird....

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Tank,

We barely have enough cap space left to sign our rookies. What the hell are you talking about?

Are you saying that Woodson's new contract is wholly front loaded and he will eat up $19 mil this year?

Tell me, as I havent check yet.

From the sounds of it the deal is frontloaded; remember of that 19MIL we need 7-8 MIL for the rookie cap.

More like $5 mil, not $7-8 mil. To use 7-8 mil to sign your picks is just plain stupid. The picks, especially, the top 3 picks is likely to be around for 4-5 years, so if you dont back load their SB, you are well...inefficient.

To allow Woodson to eat up $10 mil of cap space in one season (if that is true) is just, again, plain inefficient. The guy signed a 7 years deal, which means that he would likely be around for at least 3 seasons.

The efficient way to sign Woodson is to gave him a $7 mil SB and 3 mil roster bonus and 1 mil base salary this year. He would only eat up about 5.4 mil this year, yet still get get 11 mil in total salary.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Ever wonder how Mike Sherman used to be able to sign all the players he signed, yet every off season during is tenture, he never had more than 3 mil to spend? Ever wonder why that is possible and Pack still end up with $35 mil this year?

Efficient cap management and contracts creativity.

[CyclonePackFan]

Ever wonder how Mike Sherman used to be able to sign all the players he signed, yet every off season during is tenture, he never had more than 3 mil to spend? Ever wonder why that is possible and Pack still end up with $35 mil this year?

Efficient cap management and contracts creativity.

Sherman did it by asking Favre to take one for the team every year and mortgaging the future, preventing him from ever signing any real impact FA's. This IS creative contracting. Woodson got a SB of $0. There aren't really any more big FA's out there with the exception of Ty Law, who right now isn't a need for us. If Woodson doesn't pan out in two or three years, we can cut his ass and we don't have to waste any cap space then by giving him a prorated SB. TT's used that $35M in cap room to sign an impact player (a former two-time franchise player, I might add). He got Favre back. He hasn't sacrificed the future cap. There is NO way that we would be able to afford both Arrington and Woodson. We tried for Arrington, he turned down a better contract offer for the chance to play the 'Skins twice a year and be in a big city. For the first time in a long time, I feel comfortable with our defensive backfield. I don't feel like we have a glaring weakness at one corner spot, I don't have to worry about Sharper taking a poor angle and getting beat by Moss when it was his job to take deep cover, and we have a hitter at strong safety for the first time since Butler left. If that's all because TT fucks up every minute of his existence, I say we keep letting him dismantle us and fucking up. Right now all your ranting about TT reminds me of all the bullshit I heard Nebraska bitching about after Calahan's first year, calling to fire him. Guess what? He (unfortunately) got one of the best recruiting classes in the nation and beat Michigan in a bowl game in his second year. Football is not a sport of instant gratification. It takes more than one year to build a team. Sure, Sherman's teams had winning records, but they always started off 1-4, won a weak-ass division because the Vikings choked, and got eliminated in the first round of the playoffs. If that's what you want, you can have it. I want more Lombardi Trophys. Last time I checked, we're using the model of the Patriots, Eagles, and Steelers and focusing on building through the draft with a few FA acquisitions thrown in. Hey, it's won the Pats three Super Bowls and one for Pittsburgh. I'll take that.

Whew, what a rant. Time to get back to work.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

Sherman did it by asking Favre to take one for the team every year and mortgaging the future, preventing him from ever signing any real impact FA's. This IS creative contracting.

Sherman had far less COMBINED in his 3 years than the $35 mil thompson have this season, and still did more. THAT IS CREATIVITY AND EFFICENT CAP MANAGEMENT.

Tell me, how is it that Washington was able to do more than the Pack and they were almost 5 mil over at the start of the FA period?

Woodson got a SB of $0.
Show me the source. Until I see it I wont believe. I'm betting trm you will change this statement

There aren't really any more big FA's out there with the exception of Ty Law, who right now isn't a need for us.

EXACTLY. And who is the GM when players like Bently, Hutchinson, Peterson, Archulete, among others were still around? Couldve, shouldve, can you say Thompson fucked up during the peak of FA...with $35 mil?

If Woodson doesn't pan out in two or three years, we can cut his ass and we don't have to waste any cap space then by giving him a prorated SB. TT's used that $35M in cap room to sign an impact player (a former two-time franchise player, I might add).

And you call using up to $10-15 mil of a cap space on a SINGLE PLAYER efficent? For 10-15 mil, an efficent GM (see Washington, Gibbs) wouldve gotten 2-3 top-tier free agents.

There is NO way that we would be able to afford both Arrington and Woodson.
YEAH, NO WAY COS THOMPSON ONLY HAVE $35 MILLION. I RECALL MIKE SHERMAN SIGNING BOTH DIGGS AND KGB TO EXPENSIVE CONTRACTS IN THE SAME SEASON WITH A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN $3 MIL. I RECALL SHERMAN SIGNING JOE JOHNSON TO A CONTRACT WITH A 6 MIL SB WITH ONLY $3 MIL TO SPEND.

YEAH, NO WAY IN HELL WE CAN OFFER WOODSON AND ARRINGTON WITH $35 MIL.

We tried for Arrington, he turned down a better contract offer for the chance to play the 'Skins twice a year and be in a big city

Why then didnt he go for Peterson? If you say that Peterson also did not want to play in GB, then we have a pattern here: Most players with exceptional talant don't want to play for Thompson (see Arrington, Wahle, Sharper).

Might it then, be wise to bring some one else in, another GM who players actually want to play for?

[CyclonePackFan]

Awwwww...Tank....now you got me all meticulous...

Sherman did it by asking Favre to take one for the team every year and mortgaging the future, preventing him from ever signing any real impact FA's. This IS creative contracting.

Sherman had far less COMBINED in his 3 years than the $35 mil thompson have this season, and still did more. THAT IS CREATIVITY AND EFFICENT CAP MANAGEMENT.

Tell me, how is it that Washington was able to do more than the Pack and they were almost 5 mil over at the start of the FA period?"



Yeah, Sherman sure did more. He signed such wonderous FA's as Joe Johnson, Cletius Hunt, and KGB. He did it exactly how the Redskins are doing it, signing players to huge, backloaded contracts. In theory, it works out fine, except when a player doesn't perform. Take Hunt for example. Thanks to Sherman's "creativity and efficient cap management", we are paying Hunt $3.6M out of our cap this year. KGB is being paid $5.4M, far more than he is worth based on his recent performance. (Source: http://members.cox.net/cappage/2006cap.htm) The Redskins are able to do more with less by the same system (Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031300558.html by reworking contracts and mortgaging the future. This is exactly what TT has avoided and is the beauty of the contract. If Archuleta turns out poorly, the 'Skins are going to have to cut him and absorb his cap number. If Woodson turns out poorly, we don't have to pay him any prorated signing bonus. This is what Packers News had to say about KGB's contract:

The Packers re-signed Gbaja-Biamila, a restricted free agent whom the Philadelphia Eagles also were interested in, to a $37.3 million, seven-year deal with an $11 million signing bonus, the second largest in team history. By doing so, they were hinging a good portion of their salary cap for some years to come on a player with only a little over half of a season as a full-time starter.

(Source: http://www.packersnews.com/topics/mi...10730740.shtml)
Great job Sherman...




"Woodson got a SB of $0.
Show me the source. Until I see it I wont believe. I'm betting trm you will change this statement"

Source: http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm Can't verify it with ESPN or SI.com right now. Have to wait for details.




"There aren't really any more big FA's out there with the exception of Ty Law, who right now isn't a need for us.

EXACTLY. And who is the GM when players like Bently, Hutchinson, Peterson, Archulete, among others were still around? Couldve, shouldve, can you say Thompson fucked up during the peak of FA...with $35 mil?"

See the next point.



" If Woodson doesn't pan out in two or three years, we can cut his ass and we don't have to waste any cap space then by giving him a prorated SB. TT's used that $35M in cap room to sign an impact player (a former two-time franchise player, I might add).

And you call using up to $10-15 mil of a cap space on a SINGLE PLAYER efficent? For 10-15 mil, an efficent GM (see Washington, Gibbs) wouldve gotten 2-3 top-tier free agents. "



Let's look at the cap numbers of a couple of those "top-tier free agents" you mentioned: (this is for THIS YEAR)

Julian Peterson: $10 mil (Source: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/footba...8_hawks21.html)
Steve Hutchinson: $13 mil (Source: http://fantasyhockey.usatoday.com/co...535&line=65627)
Terrell Owens: $10 mil (Source:http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2374189)

Our $35 mil could have gotten us probably 2 big-name free agents, our draft picks and one or two mid-level FAs. Instead, we got 1 big-name free agent and a bunch of good- to mid-level FA's, including Pickett, Kampman, Henderson, Boerigter, Taylor, and Allen. As you are so fond of pointing out, we went 4-12 last year. We're a little more than 2 guys away from the playoffs. That $10.5 mil you think is so bad for Woodson looks like it's pretty much in line with what other FA's are receiving, and these guys, again, have more guaranteed money in the future.



"There is NO way that we would be able to afford both Arrington and Woodson.
YEAH, NO WAY COS THOMPSON ONLY HAVE $35 MILLION. I RECALL MIKE SHERMAN SIGNING BOTH DIGGS AND KGB TO EXPENSIVE CONTRACTS IN THE SAME SEASON WITH A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN $3 MIL. I RECALL SHERMAN SIGNING JOE JOHNSON TO A CONTRACT WITH A 6 MIL SB WITH ONLY $3 MIL TO SPEND.

YEAH, NO WAY IN HELL WE CAN OFFER WOODSON AND ARRINGTON WITH $35 MIL."

First of all, Arrington wasn't even interested in GB until we had $19 mil left. Subtract $5 mil for rookies and we have $14 mil. Arrington signed for (about) $5 mil per year (at current deal). That would put Woodson and Arrington at $15.5 mil. I must change my statement a bit, we COULD have gotten them both if we prorated part of Woodson's cap number. Still, we're mortgaging the future again.

As for the "I RECALL MIKE SHERMAN SIGNING BOTH DIGGS AND KGB TO EXPENSIVE CONTRACTS IN THE SAME SEASON WITH A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN $3 MIL. I RECALL SHERMAN SIGNING JOE JOHNSON TO A CONTRACT WITH A 6 MIL SB WITH ONLY $3 MIL TO SPEND."

You're right. Johnson was signed for a $6 mil SB with about $3 mil. Then what happened? He got injured, was cut, and we had to pay him a lot of money for a couple of years when he wasn't on the team. It's the same reason we're paying Hunt $3.6 mil this year. IF SHERMAN HADN'T SIGNED ALL THESE GUYS TO BACKLOADED CONTRACTS WE WOULD HAVE HAD ENOUGH CAP ROOM TO RE-SIGN WAHLE OR RIVERA LAST YEAR, INSTEAD WE WERE LOCKED DOWN WITH NO CAP ROOM TO WORK WITH.


We tried for Arrington, he turned down a better contract offer for the chance to play the 'Skins twice a year and be in a big city

Why then didnt he go for Peterson? If you say that Peterson also did not want to play in GB, then we have a pattern here: Most players with exceptional talant don't want to play for Thompson (see Arrington, Wahle, Sharper).

Might it then, be wise to bring some one else in, another GM who players actually want to play for? [/quote]

Find me EXACTLY where I said Peterson didn't want to play in GB. In fact, I never said ANYBODY "didn't want to play in GB." I said Arrington wanted to play in the NFC East, a statement he made from day 1. Ultimately, he turned down a better offer from GB to play for New York. And the last time I checked, TT wasn't the reason Wahle and Sharper left, I believe the reasons were an $11.5 mil signing bonus for Wahle and about a $4 mil signing bonus for Sharper, whose release gave us $3.6 mil in cap space.

Finally, I challenge you to FIND ME A QUOTE where a player says, SPECIFICALLY, that he doesn't want to play for Thompson. Last time I checked, players are usually pretty indifferent to their GM, they tend to care more about their coach.

[Anti-Polar Bear]

[quote="CyclonePackFan"]Awwwww...Tank....now you got me all meticulous...

Sherman did it by asking Favre to take one for the team every year and mortgaging the future, preventing him from ever signing any real impact FA's. This IS creative contracting.

Sherman had far less COMBINED in his 3 years than the $35 mil thompson have this season, and still did more. THAT IS CREATIVITY AND EFFICENT CAP MANAGEMENT.

Tell me, how is it that Washington was able to do more than the Pack and they were almost 5 mil over at the start of the FA period?"



Yeah, Sherman sure did more. He signed such wonderous FA's as Joe Johnson, Cletius Hunt, and KGB. He did it exactly how the Redskins are doing it, signing players to huge, backloaded contracts. In theory, it works out fine, except when a player doesn't perform. Take Hunt for example. Thanks to Sherman's "creativity and efficient cap management", we are paying Hunt $3.6M out of our cap this year. KGB is being paid $5.4M, far more than he is worth based on his recent performance. (Source: http://members.cox.net/cappage/2006cap.htm) The Redskins are able to do more with less by the same system (Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031300558.html by reworking contracts and mortgaging the future. This is exactly what TT has avoided and is the beauty of the contract. If Archuleta turns out poorly, the 'Skins are going to have to cut him and absorb his cap number. If Woodson turns out poorly, we don't have to pay him any prorated signing bonus. This is what Packers News had to say about KGB's contract:

The Packers re-signed Gbaja-Biamila, a restricted free agent whom the Philadelphia Eagles also were interested in, to a $37.3 million, seven-year deal with an $11 million signing bonus, the second largest in team history. By doing so, they were hinging a good portion of their salary cap for some years to come on a player with only a little over half of a season as a full-time starter.

(Source: http://www.packersnews.com/topics/mi...10730740.shtml)
Great job Sherman...

Your right Sherman did good. Let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum now: Thompson refused to overpay Wahle; He refused to restructure Sharper's contract. He refused to sign anyone else, except for players willing to accept the minimum; he bought in Arturo Freeman, Thompson, navies, etc.

The Pack go 4-12.

This year with $35 mil, and before the Woodson signing, Thompson only got a average DT, a 4th string WR and a backup S.

Almost everybody, even you, agree that Pack probably is not good enough to make the playoffs.

Sherman, on the other hand, spend money like the Redskins does for 3 years. He made the playoffs all those years. The Packers were competitive and they never went 4-12.

Whats better? Winning or losing?

This year, Thompson have 35 mil, even though Sherman was a big spender. How is that possible. I mean if Sherman mismanaged the cap, we wouldnt have that much money, would we?

[Anti-Polar Bear]

"Woodson got a SB of $0.
Show me the source. Until I see it I wont believe. I'm betting trm you will change this statement"

Source: http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm Can't verify it with ESPN or SI.com right now. Have to wait for details.

LOL. Yeah, that’s a credible source; I will admit im wrong if that turns out to be true, but a “rumormill?” Well, I hope this end up on the rumormill too: Randy Moss is coming to Green Bay!”