Favre or No Favre? Ted Thompson or No Ted Thompson?

[Merlin]

After reading all of the "Favre Trade" posts, I pondered where to put my response to this. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and there has been more diversity in opinions over this topic then I have seen in a long time here (probably because it's he off season and we are bored). So instead of replying to what someone else has said and get into what would be an obvious argument, I decided to post a new thread to say my peace and leave it at that.

When Favre first appeared in a game for us, I admit it, I didn't like the guy. I thought he was too wild and would not settle down long enough to become what he has. After the 1993 season, my attitude changed. It was his almost child like approach to the game that caused me to change my tune. He didn't care what the stats said, he didn't care what defense the other team was in. All he cared about was playing the game and winning. From that point on I have been in his corner. Some say Reggie White was the reason we went to two super bowls, others say Favre. Personally I think they both played their parts and it was White's leadership on defense and Favre's leadership on offense. It was also Holmgren's patience with Favre. He could have pulled the plug on him at anytime, but yet he stuck with him.

Favre has done nothing for the Packers but try to win. His retirement talk I believe was fueled by the media. Ever since he mentioned it years ago, the media can't let it go. Over the course of the past two seasons Packer fans everywhere held their breath in hopes that Favre would return. I don't think his decision had anything to do with really wanting to hang em up, it had to do with his family and whether or not the Packers were committed to winning. When Thompson was hired, he stripped the offensive line and replaced them with no one. When the offense was decimated with injuries, he replaced them with no one. Although Samkon Gado was a spark, he was not a starting running back when we picked him up. Then Thompson gave Javon Walker what he wanted and replaced him with Koren Robinson, a player with more baggage then Randy Moss and who isn't even on the roster. He picked up a QB as his first ever draft pick and he immediately became #2 even though he had never taken a snap in the NFL at any level. So instead of getting a viable backup to Favre, he got a rookie with questionable skills. Say what you want about Doug Peterson and Craig Nall, but they did the job when called upon. Rodgers hasn't as of yet. Thompson went out on a limb and signed Charles Woodson, a big name free agent. I believe this was an attempt to show Favre that he was dedicated to winning now. Unfortunately, he did nothing on the offensive side of the ball to improve the team now. This past off season TT let Green go and although he wasn't worth the big contract he got from Houston, I believe something could have been worked out to keep him here. Our Leading scorer, Ryan Longwell left for Minnesota and Thompson replaced him with a backup and then drafted a kicker this year. He let David Martin go, who when healthy was the best TE we had. Then he released William Henderson, a reliable veteran with gas left in the tank, great mentor and team player, making the vet minimum. The move cost the Packers much more then it saved us.

So come draft day when TT didn't do everything he could to bring a big name player to the Packers, Favre got pissed off. I would have to guess that Favre knew a lot about this possible move because his agent was involved and he had been in contact with Randy Moss personally. To say he didn't know anything is naive. He knows plenty as I am sure he tracks personnel moves as much as we do. It is the team he plays for and he does care about the team and winning. There have been plenty of opportunities in the off season to get some veteran leadership on offense. We have all debated those players in our forums. There are still the June 1st cap cuts and training camp cuts. But how many more players with Randy Moss' abilities will be available? I am guessing, none. For the second season in a row, it appears Ted is happy going in with enough money under the cap to sign a few good veterans on offense.

Do I blame Favre for wanting to be traded? No, not at all. In fact I think it lends a lot of creditability to what I have speculated all along, Thompson doesn't want Favre. The main reason? As long as Favre is around, he has more creditability, likability and is the face of the franchise. Don't kid yourselves, Thompson has a healthy ego and when Favre speaks, people listen. Otherwise this topic would be a mute issue. He sees the writing on the wall as many of us have. Expecting Favre to be your offense at this point in his career is mismanagement. Last season McCarthy told Favre he would not have to carry the offense anymore. He had to carry the offense in 2006. Was it a lie? Who knows but to say that he isn't expected to carry the offense in 2007 with less talent then we had in 2005 after injuries would be the same as saying the ocean is dry.

I have given Ted Thompson all the time I am willing to give him. If his "plan" isn't readily evident this season, which would be nothing short of the playoffs, then not only is Favre done, so will be a lot of the fans. This is the Packers, our team, not Ted "tightwad" Thompson's team. The sooner he realizes that, the sooner we will field an NFL offense. Unfortunately, people like Thompson normally don't get it.

[Spaulding]

Merlin, not sure where all the thoughts of TT's ego are founded. He simply has a plan and a method which he believes so strongly in that he doesn't waver from it.

Was Thompson known as an egomaniac in Seattle? Does he seek out attention as the Packer's GM? The guy is quiet and confident - does that automatically suggest arrogance??

TT has been a GM in the NFL and as our current GM I expect him to have the skills and demeanor to rebuild this organization.

In this day and age, NFL teams are like the tide with high points and low points. Given the shape of our roster due to age and lack of depth I see merit in Thompson's approach. Whether the players drafted are poor, average or solid starters still remains to be seen in just TT's third year as GM.

Would I rather have an impulsive GM like Sherman or calulate the odds and show no emotion poker player like TT as a GM? Obviously based on my defense of TT I'm for the latter.

The whole odd thing about all these recent postings is that I really don't care for TT the person. I rue the day I won't get to see Brett take the snaps under center for the Packers. But as a GM I feel that TT is doing what he believes as right for the organization and I have to believe that he has all the skills and tools to make those decisions that I as a fan can't.

Bottom line, I don't believe ego is what makes TT tick. Confidence about a plan he believes in (to his success or failure) does.

[Merlin]

Well thought out, accept he does have an ego. He flaunts it every time he speaks. Having the courage of your convictions is one thing, having an ego to destroy a team is another. You forget that TT took over part of Holmgren's responsibilities. Holmgren, like Favre is untouchable. Favre may not be a Packer come September and then and only then will you see TT have the courage of his convictions when Rodgers proves to be a bust and all he does is throw veteran leadership at the offensive woes. His direction is misguided in the belief that a 17 year veteran QB can keep your team competitive alone. He knows that as long as Favre is there, his "dream" will never come to fruition. He has done everything to build to this moment. Don't be surprised if Favre isn't a Packer come the regular season. Thompson's ego will field trade offers without question.

[pbmax]

Merlin I agree with most of your post, but this line:

His retirement talk I believe was fueled by the media.

ignores the fact that HE started it all. He gave an interview to SI/Silver in 2001 and again to King in preseason before the start of the next season.

This was not an issue because of the media flogging it (it was overcovered, certainly), it was an issue because he brought it up in the first place and then kept commenting.

[pbmax]

Thompson didn't demote Holmgren, Paul Allen and Bob Whitsitt did. That wasn't the doing of Thompson. And from all indications, What changed wasn't Thompson's responsibilities (player personnel) but who he reported to (Whitsitt instead of Holmgren).

Well thought out, accept he does have an ego. He flaunts it every time he speaks. Having the courage of your convictions is one thing, having an ego to destroy a team is another. You forget that TT took over part of Holmgren's responsibilities..

[Fritz]

"Do I blame Favre for wanting to be traded? No, not at all. In fact I think it lends a lot of creditability to what I have speculated all along, Thompson doesn't want Favre."

I thought someone might say this. But if Thompson really didn't want Favre around, wouldn't he have jumped on this and traded Favre, claiming he wanted to honor the future Hall of Famer's wishes? It would be the perfect scenario for all you conspiracy theorists - TT gets his secret desire to be rid of Favre while pretending he didn't really want to do it, but only did so out of respect for the great QB. But TT didn't do that.

So Merlin, in my estimation the opposite of what you say is true. This whole flap actually undermines the claim of those who somehow think that what's behind all this is TT's fervent desire to get rid of Brett Favre.

[Spaulding]

Well thought out, accept he does have an ego. He flaunts it every time he speaks. Having the courage of your convictions is one thing, having an ego to destroy a team is another. You forget that TT took over part of Holmgren's responsibilities. Holmgren, like Favre is untouchable. Favre may not be a Packer come September and then and only then will you see TT have the courage of his convictions when Rodgers proves to be a bust and all he does is throw veteran leadership at the offensive woes. His direction is misguided in the belief that a 17 year veteran QB can keep your team competitive alone. He knows that as long as Favre is there, his "dream" will never come to fruition. He has done everything to build to this moment. Don't be surprised if Favre isn't a Packer come the regular season. Thompson's ego will field trade offers without question.

I see your point but still respectfully disagree. I haven't seen all the public outings by Thompson but in the ones I've seen I've never gotten the feeling that he's a power monger. The one way I could understand people thinking that is due to the fact that he doesn't explain his actions.

[wist43]

I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

[Spaulding]

I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

Wist, I agree with you. The only difference is I want to see how year three of TT as GM plays out. Is his confidence and inside information on his drafted players (mainly from 2005 as 2004 is looking pretty slim) well founded or do we flounder in mediocrity or worse in 2007? Is taking Harrell with the 1st pick a good move down the road and do the offensive players (Jackson, Jones, Clowney) provide the offensive spark needed in 2007?

Hard to say. For now though I'm fine with his approach as I trust Harlan in selecting him (and Wolf's endorsement) and I'm with holding full judgement until the latter half of this year.

In my eyes, the glass is half full. In your eyes the glass is evidently half empty

[pbmax]

Why does this running scheme need Lynch when 2nd through 6th rounders work in Denver?

You're thinking like Sherman, that one pick and one player is the only answer. More picks, better players thoughout the roster, make that single pick less important, less of a need to be a world-beater.

Criticism of the FA thing makes sense. But three drafts in, he's seems to know how to mine talent. It remains to be seen if he can finish the puzzle by adding the final pieces to a better team.

But of all the jobs a GM has, reading USAToday, ESPN.com and others, picking out the highest profile FA and overpaying for him seems like the easiest part.

I don't want TT to act "impulsively"...

I want him to move deftly and intelligently into positions to get top flight players at positions need.

Is Meachem a pro bowl calibur WR??? I don't know, but I can guarentee you that one of the receivers out of the 1st couple of rounds will be of that calibur. It's TT's job to find that guy... It fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

Is Lynch a pro bowl calibur RB??? I don't know, but if he's rated high enough to where most teams had him going #12 to Buffalo, then TT certainly should have considered moving up to #11... it fills a major need, and gives value for the pick.

TT is so rigid, that I don't ever see him moving up or down to fill needs... he's strictly a BPA, regardless of position. 6 quality DT's isn't going to score you any more TD's than 5 quality DT's will; but, I'm pretty sure they'll score fewer TD's than Meachem or Lynch.

[PackerBlues]

All things considered, I can see how Moss may have led both Favre and his agent on. (and yes, perhaps even the front office of the GB Packers) Its not hard to imagine Moss using them as bargaining tools to up his pay in NE.

That being said, you should all tone down the way you are bashing Favre on this. Favre has never called attention to himself in the media in the way that some on these forums are claiming. He has however spoke honestly and freely with the media whenever they asked him questions. Particularly the media in mississippi. Perhaps I am wrong in saying this also, but the main talks had to be between Moss's agent and the Packers. Bus Cooke WAS Moss's agent, but from my understanding he has not been for quite some time now and another agent was in control on this one. So if Thompson was not filling in Favre (and I agree, he had no reason to) then Favre would have gotten all of his imformation not only from Bus Cook, but also more than likely, Randy Moss himself.

Now, think about that for a minute. For Moss, to have a guy of Brett Favres fame, rooting for you, and wanting you on his team.........it opened some eyes, and more than likely opened NE's wallet a little more than if he would have just come out and said he would only accept a trade to NE.

The part of this that I really dont understand and can get no "feel for" is why in the world would Al Davis send Moss to another AFC team? Moss really should not have had that much say in where he went, and if he was just playing games with GB, Davis could have pulled the trigger on the trade with GB and forced Moss's hand. Had that happened, we would have found out for sure if he really ever wanted to play in GB or if he was just using Favre and GB as bargaining tools.

I am pretty sure that to find out the truth in all of this, we would actually have to hear from Al Davis, and perhaps Moss himself. Moss's silence since going to NE in regards to his supposed desire to play with Brett Favre speaks volumes in and of itself.

In the end, I believe the most likely scenario would be that Moss had been talking directly to Favre, trying to get help to get GB to up their offer in hopes that it would get NE to up their offer. Favre being the honest and trusting guy he is, bought into Moss's lies and got his hopes up that he would have an unstoppable WR core to go along with ...............ummmmmm..........Bubba and whatever rookies they have to fill in at the TE position and RB positions.......oh, and the FB positions.

If you open your eyes, I think you can see that Favre just wanted some veteran, proven players on offense to make life easier for him this season. As it is, he now has Driver, Jennings, Bubba "stone hands" Franks, and a bunch of unknowns.

[pbmax]

Davis couldn't, because before the Packers would trade the pick, they would have needed to have the new contract agreed to with Moss. No team wnated him on the roster with the old contract.

Moss torpedoed that when he asked for guaranteed money.

The part of this that I really dont understand and can get no "feel for" is why in the world would Al Davis send Moss to another AFC team? Moss really should not have had that much say in where he went, and if he was just playing games with GB, Davis could have pulled the trigger on the trade with GB and forced Moss's hand.

[LL2]

I have been on vacation so I haven’t had the time to read all the Favre and TT threads. Sometimes when a thread gets past page two before I see it I tend not to read it, because I don’t have the time too. This one seems to sum up what many of those other threads are saying.

I agree with some of the different points here, but Favre has created his own “retire or not to retire” dilemma. That started before TT even came to the Packers. For the most part his retirement issue has gotten on my nerves from time to time, but I love the guy and want to see him play and at times I think it might be best to move on the Arod. Sure he may be a flop, but we have to find another QB sooner than later.

On the issue of TT not getting Moss. We do not know the full details and find it hard to believe Moss would’ve come to GB for the same or less money. Not when the Pats are that close to winning it all every year. When you are close to winning it every year like the Pats that’s when you go get a player like Moss. I’m not saying Moss wouldn’t have helped the Pack, but to say he would’ve put us over the top and got us to the NFC championship game is a joke.

I like TT’s approach and willing to give him this year and possibly 1 more before I call for his firing. The team was in a mess when he took over and in salary cap hell. So, I think we are better off today than we were three years ago.

I will always be a Packer fan regardless of who the QB or GM is. So, if TT’s move will drive fans away then they do not have the Green and Gold in their blood.

[Scott Campbell]

Favre has never called attention to himself in the media in the way that some on these forums are claiming.

Then that video on the front page of ESPN's website yesterday of him bitching about Ted must have been a mirage.

[packinpatland]

Favre has never called attention to himself in the media in the way that some on these forums are claiming.

Then that video on the front page of ESPN's website yesterday of him bitching about Ted must have been a mirage.

Come on Scott, he was at his annual fundraising golf event. We didn't hear the question he was asked, now did we?
In a perfect world, reporters would be there to ask him about his foundation or that of his wifes', how the money was going to be used, how much was raised, you know, the kind of things that most 'inquiring minds' don't want to know.

And you know damn well, that the name Favre, or his picture sells. Of course the story/video would be on the front page.