Packers WR's vs Other Teams

[HarveyWallbangers]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

I still think there are probably 10-12 teams who have a better set of receivers talent-wise than we do in terms of the top 3.

I don't think so. Driver is a top 12 receiver. Jennings has to be one of the best #2 receivers. Jones or Robinson would rank in the top 10 3rd receivers.

Well, I'm including good TEs as a top 3 receiver.

I'll take NE with Moss, Welker and Stallworth.
I'll take ARI with Fitzgerald, Boldin, whoever
I'll take CIN with Johnson, Housh, whoever
I'll take IND with Harrison, Wayne, Clark
I'll take CLE with Edwards, Bryant, Winslow
I'll take DAL with Owens, Witten, Glenn

Those six are definites in my mind. Then there are probably 6-8 teams that are toss ups. I guess I'll give GB the benefit of the doubt though based on production. They are a top 8 team in terms of their top 3 receivers. I'm doing this as if everyone is healthy...in terms of right now this season, Green Bay moves up because some of these teams ahead of them are beat up while the Packers are relatively healthy at WR/TE.

I don't see Driver as a top 12 receiver. He's not a red zone threat whatsoever. Personally, I think it is hard to put Driver in the top 15 receivers in the league in terms of talent. 63 catches...2 TDs. That isn't very good. Out of the top 40 receivers in yardage right now, only guys like Cotchery, Hilliard and Randel El have found paydirt less often. He's strictly a possession receiver.

To me, Jennings is probably about the same talent level as Driver...not as consistent, but can make huge plays. 40 catches...9 TDs. That is production. I see both of these guys as around the 25th-30th spots as receivers. Driver has the consistency, but can't score. Jennings isn't overly consistent, but makes plays when needed anywhere on the field. They are a great combo, but alone they don't have the complete package.

Jones intrigues me. His development will be interesting to watch. He has tremendous hands. He's more like Driver than Jennings...probably a great replacement for Driver in 2-3 years. Arguably a top 50 guy right now.

Koren is an enigma. He's got the talent to be in the top 50, but after being out of the league for a year he has some work to do to get back in form. He's the best #4 WR in the league though. Lee has made some plays, but he isn't anywhere near the top 50 as a receiver.

I didn't see any mention of TEs. Driver doesn't usually have just 2 TDs. Just the breaks of having so many options. It amazes me that Driver still is underrated. Maybe he isn't the greatest redzone threat, but he can do everything you want your receiver to do. Some things he does as well as any receiver in the league. He led receivers in yards after catch last year. However, he also has deep speed. He also is one of the best leapers in the NFL. He runs great routes. Most receivers have things that aren't great at. His production the last several years puts him in the top 12 receivers in the game. That production has come with him as the only option, him as the secondary option to Javon Walker, and him as just one of many options (this year). He's a very good receiver.

[Guiness]

Incredibly funny to read back through this one! All the talk of Martin and Holliday, but barely a mention of Jones. No one expected much from him.

Our #3 WR spot is a real strength. And #4...assuming that's Robinson, the thought of him running a go route with an LB in chase has to worry DC's!

All in all, our top 5 WR's are probably #2 in the league. NE is better, but Indi with Harrison out is a lot weaker. Detroit and Arizona don't have anything after the #2. Dallas...is Glenn even healthy yet? Cleveland looks good when you include Winslow, but Lee has been giving us production there, so I don't even know if I'd take that!

[Packgator]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

[quote="HarveyWallbangers"]

I still think there are probably 10-12 teams who have a better set of receivers talent-wise than we do in terms of the top 3.

I don't think so. Driver is a top 12 receiver. Jennings has to be one of the best #2 receivers. Jones or Robinson would rank in the top 10 3rd receivers.

I didn't see any mention of TEs. Driver doesn't usually have just 2 TDs. Just the breaks of having so many options. It amazes me that Driver still is underrated. Maybe he isn't the greatest redzone threat, but he can do everything you want your receiver to do. Some things he does as well as any receiver in the league. He led receivers in yards after catch last year. However, he also has deep speed. He also is one of the best leapers in the NFL. He runs great routes. Most receivers have things that aren't great at. His production the last several years puts him in the top 12 receivers in the game. That production has come with him as the only option, him as the secondary option to Javon Walker, and him as just one of many options (this year). He's a very good receiver.

And how good is he going across the middle? Best in the league? He's got tremendous courage. I cringe at some of the situations he finds himself in......yet he keeps doing it and making plays every week.

[The Leaper]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

Driver doesn't usually have just 2 TDs.

No, but he's never been a prolific scorer. He's never had a double digit TD season. Nearly 500 career catches and only 38 TDs to show for it...despite being paired with one of the most prolific TD tossers in NFL history?

Driver is what he is...a possession receiver. He's a great possession receiver, but he's not an all-around threat as a receiver. That is why he can't be counted among the league's elite.

Yes, he's productive. I never said anything about production. My comparison was never meant to be about production. That brings the surrounding talent into the equation, which is where most Packer receivers have a huge edge over the rest of the league with Favre being their QB.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

In his four previous healthy seasons, he had 9, 9, 8 and 5 TDs. Except for the 5 and this year, those are good numbers.

Out of his 4 healthy seasons, he had at least 8 TDs in three of them. 8-9 TDs is not low for a wideout.

Even if he isn't the greatest redzone threat (which I've acknowledged), that doesn't mean he's a possession receiver. He can get deep. In every healthy year before this one, he averaged at least 14.1 yards/reception. This offense isn't predicated on the deep ball, but Donald can beat you deep, he can take a short one and go the distance, and he's exceptional on the intermediate routes. He also has fantastic hops, has solid hands, and is extremely tough.

[hoosier]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

In his four previous healthy seasons, he had 9, 9, 8 and 5 TDs. Except for the 5 and this year, those are good numbers.

Out of his 4 healthy seasons, he had at least 8 TDs in three of them. 8-9 TDs is not low for a wideout.

Even if he isn't the greatest redzone threat (which I've acknowledged), that doesn't mean he's a possession receiver. He can get deep. In every healthy year before this one, he averaged at least 14.1 yards/reception. This offense isn't predicated on the deep ball, but Donald can beat you deep, he can take a short one and go the distance, and he's exceptional on the intermediate routes. He also has fantastic hops, has solid hands, and is extremely tough.

Driver is one of the best (and most exciting) after the catch that I've seen. That short crossing route that he turned into a huge gain in 4th quarter against Detroit was quite impressive. And don't forget his amazing durability and toughness.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

I still think there are probably 10-12 teams who have a better set of receivers talent-wise than we do in terms of the top 3.

I don't think so. Driver is a top 12 receiver. Jennings has to be one of the best #2 receivers. Jones or Robinson would rank in the top 10 3rd receivers.

Well, I'm including good TEs as a top 3 receiver.

I'll take NE with Moss, Welker and Stallworth.
I'll take ARI with Fitzgerald, Boldin, whoever
I'll take CIN with Johnson, Housh, whoever
I'll take IND with Harrison, Wayne, Clark
I'll take CLE with Edwards, Bryant, Winslow
I'll take DAL with Owens, Witten, Glenn

Those six are definites in my mind. Then there are probably 6-8 teams that are toss ups. I guess I'll give GB the benefit of the doubt though based on production. They are a top 8 team in terms of their top 3 receivers. I'm doing this as if everyone is healthy...in terms of right now this season, Green Bay moves up because some of these teams ahead of them are beat up while the Packers are relatively healthy at WR/TE.

I don't see Driver as a top 12 receiver. He's not a red zone threat whatsoever. Personally, I think it is hard to put Driver in the top 15 receivers in the league in terms of talent. 63 catches...2 TDs. That isn't very good. Out of the top 40 receivers in yardage right now, only guys like Cotchery, Hilliard and Randel El have found paydirt less often. He's strictly a possession receiver.

To me, Jennings is probably about the same talent level as Driver...not as consistent, but can make huge plays. 40 catches...9 TDs. That is production. I see both of these guys as around the 25th-30th spots as receivers. Driver has the consistency, but can't score. Jennings isn't overly consistent, but makes plays when needed anywhere on the field. They are a great combo, but alone they don't have the complete package.

Jones intrigues me. His development will be interesting to watch. He has tremendous hands. He's more like Driver than Jennings...probably a great replacement for Driver in 2-3 years. Arguably a top 50 guy right now.

Koren is an enigma. He's got the talent to be in the top 50, but after being out of the league for a year he has some work to do to get back in form. He's the best #4 WR in the league though. Lee has made some plays, but he isn't anywhere near the top 50 as a receiver.

Well, you may not see driver as top 12, but 2 pro bowls are 2 pro bowls. The fans, players and coaches see him as being good.

Currently he sits at #13 in receiving yards, with 2 TEs included. Take them out and he is #11. Furthermore, he has those yards with significantly less catches then Welker and TJ.

But, you make the case that he is no red zone threat. That is just patently false. This year is an aberration. Should we not look at past production.

In 06 he had more TDs than: Ocho Cinco, Roy Williams, Boldin, Andre Johnson, Isaac Bruce, Coles, Furrey, Ward, Cotchery, fitz, Edwards, Glenn...do we need to continue this foolishness?

Let's take a look at your teams with better receivers. And, we go 5 deep. That is the strength of our team.

AZ: Who is third? Bryant Johnson. That is it. 32 catches and ZERO TDs. They don't have anybody else that is even a legitimate threat. Johson has been a perpetual disappointment in AZ. Sorry, but that is a clear win for us.

NE: Stallworth and Welker. Nice players but no better than what we have. Stallworth has bounced around for a reason and he has less receptions then our #3. Welker is racking up numbers because he plays on a great offensive team. Catching for 10 ypc is nothing to write home about. He is nothing special, a nice player. HIs value comes from being able to play multiple roles like he did in Miami. Jennings and Robinson would have the same numbers. A

At 3 you might have a case. Go to a 4th receiver and no way. Lee destroys Watson.

Natti: Whomever. That would be henry. But, since he can't stay on the field, that goes the packers way. Ocho Cinco is certainly better than any of our receivers, but TJ is no better than Driver. Put Jones/Krob/Lee and that is better than their #3.

Ind: Agreed. But, go deeper and they have nothing. Look at how they struggle without Harrison. Morehead. LOL As for Clark, his numbers and Lee's are almost identical.

Cleveland: Who is this Bryant you refer to? Their #3 is Jurevicius. I would certainly take our top 3 against theirs. And, 4th is Jamal Lewis..case closed.

Dallas: If everyone is healthy you could make a case for top 3, but not a chance if you go 4/5 deep. Don't you have to be on the field to count. Glenn doesn't have a reception THIS YEAR. But, let's go back..he had 6 tds last year. And, you are complaining about DD? DD had more receptions last year, almost the same ypc and more TDs.

[The Leaper]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

Well, you may not see driver as top 12, but 2 pro bowls are 2 pro bowls. The fans, players and coaches see him as being good.

Again, it isn't about production. Driver has Favre throwing him the football, which puts him at a decidedly greater advantage than the receivers for about 80% of the rest of the league. I'm talking strictly TALENT...meaning, what would he do compared with other receivers IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION.

You honestly believe that there aren't more than 12 receivers in the league that could put up better numbers with Favre tossing them the ball in this offense than 60 catches and 2 TDs?

The bottom line is that Favre raises the level and production of our WRs SIGNIFICANTLY. Just look at Bill Schroeder and what Favre did for him. That guy was a below average receiver who got 1000 yards a year and 6-8 TDs with Favre tossing him the ball. I will admit that Driver probably gets the least amount of help from Favre in terms of production due to his role as a possession receiver. Driver does a lot on his own and is a great WR. However, I just feel there are other guys who have more talent and ability to produce if given the same opportunity.

I think many of you discount just what Favre means to the production of our WRs. I'm not trying to say I'm unhappy with our receiver situation. In fact, I'm quite happy. We have the deepest group in the league, and as long as Favre is the guy tossing them the ball, they will be putting up some of the best numbers in the league as a unit.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

Well, you may not see driver as top 12, but 2 pro bowls are 2 pro bowls. The fans, players and coaches see him as being good.

Again, it isn't about production. Driver has Favre throwing him the football, which puts him at a decidedly greater advantage than the receivers for about 80% of the rest of the league. I'm talking strictly TALENT...meaning, what would he do compared with other receivers IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION.

You honestly believe that there aren't more than 12 receivers in the league that could put up better numbers with Favre tossing them the ball in this offense than 60 catches and 2 TDs?

The bottom line is that Favre raises the level and production of our WRs SIGNIFICANTLY. Just look at Bill Schroeder and what Favre did for him. That guy was a below average receiver who got 1000 yards a year and 6-8 TDs with Favre tossing him the ball. I will admit that Driver probably gets the least amount of help from Favre in terms of production due to his role as a possession receiver. Driver does a lot on his own and is a great WR. However, I just feel there are other guys who have more talent and ability to produce if given the same opportunity.

I think many of you discount just what Favre means to the production of our WRs. I'm not trying to say I'm unhappy with our receiver situation. In fact, I'm quite happy. We have the deepest group in the league, and as long as Favre is the guy tossing them the ball, they will be putting up some of the best numbers in the league as a unit.

Oh, we are going by TALENT.

Then you are even more wrong. DD's weakness has long been his hands. But, when people talk about talent usually they refer to a whole skillset.

DD lettered in Football and Track & Field in college and played 4 sports in high school. That tells me he is supremely talented. He is an OLYMPIC class high jumper.

Enough with your opinion, what exact area of talent do you find him deficient in?

DD would do just fine with any reasonable QB in the league. You overrate what Favre does just as you claim others do for WRs.

But, ok, let's take your argument. Can't i just say the same for other receivers like: TJ, Ocho, Welker, Moss, etc. They have the advantage of great QBs as well.

And, DD isn't a possession receiver. We play a offensive scheme that doesn't stress the bomb. Next thing you are going to tell me is that Taylor of San Fran was a possession receiver. Or that TO was a possession receiver in San Fran. Or was it Jerry Rice. If one isn't then the other has to be. Or, do they not have a possession receiver.

Schroeder: He wasn't below average. Sorry, but below average guys don't make 70 plus receptions. If that was the case, every receiver woulda done it with Favre. More importanly, he had ONE season over a 1000. And, one season over 5 tds.

[The Leaper]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

Oh, we are going by TALENT.

Then you are even more wrong. DD's weakness has long been his hands. But, when people talk about talent usually they refer to a whole skillset.

DD lettered in Football and Track & Field in college and played 4 sports in high school. That tells me he is supremely talented. He is an OLYMPIC class high jumper.

That is athleticism, not talent. There are plenty of ridiculous athletes who can run and jump just as well as any NFL player...maybe better...but can't play football worth a lick.

Otherwise, all OLYMPIC class athletes would be in the NFL.

[The Leaper]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

Schroeder: He wasn't below average. Sorry, but below average guys don't make 70 plus receptions. If that was the case, every receiver woulda done it with Favre. More importanly, he had ONE season over a 1000. And, one season over 5 tds.

So which is it? Was he average, or did he only do anything in one season? Thanks for making my point for me. Just go look at his numbers after he left Green Bay and went to Detroit. Then tell me how he isn't below average.

The guy was an athlete. He wasn't a football player.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

Oh, we are going by TALENT.

Then you are even more wrong. DD's weakness has long been his hands. But, when people talk about talent usually they refer to a whole skillset.

DD lettered in Football and Track & Field in college and played 4 sports in high school. That tells me he is supremely talented. He is an OLYMPIC class high jumper.

That is athleticism, not talent. There are plenty of ridiculous athletes who can run and jump just as well as any NFL player...maybe better...but can't play football worth a lick.

Otherwise, all OLYMPIC class athletes would be in the NFL.

Well, then define Talent for me.

I asked before what talent you think he is missing?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

Schroeder: He wasn't below average. Sorry, but below average guys don't make 70 plus receptions. If that was the case, every receiver woulda done it with Favre. More importanly, he had ONE season over a 1000. And, one season over 5 tds.

So which is it? Was he average, or did he only do anything in one season? Thanks for making my point for me. Just go look at his numbers after he left Green Bay and went to Detroit. Then tell me how he isn't below average.

The guy was an athlete. He wasn't a football player.

He was at his PEAK and average receiver. All players have peaks.

He made himself into a receiver.

After he left...that is a foolish argument to make. One, who EVER is good in Detroit besides Barry.

Second, he was FREAKING 31 years old. Most players don't last that long.

But, i would call 36 catches 2 consecutive years with both years average over 10...and 16.5 being the second highest ever as..well, proving the exact opposite.

Oh, and consider that he was basically their #1 receiver. And, played with a first year QB named Harrington.

Game, Set, Match.

[The Leaper]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

Well, then define Talent for me.

It is impossible to quantify everything that makes up talent...but consider your general Madden-game type qualifications for a receiver. Those generally are what I am talking about.

It all goes together to create an overall rating. Driver doesn't lack much, except in terms of size. That is what greatly limits him from being a red zone threat, and it also hinders his capacity to make plays downfield in jump ball situations.

I've never said Driver isn't any good. However, he can't do everything as a receiver...like a Moss or Owens or Johnson. He can't dominate games and take them over like elite receivers do...even though he is paired with an all-time great QB. Neither do general accolades and awards...those are based on PRODUCTION. Otherwise, Favre should always be in the Pro Bowl...since he has always been one of the 3 most talented players in the NFC at QB.

I don't think he's a top 20 talent. He's certainly a top 10 producer when paired with Favre. I just think there are quite a few WRs in the league that could put up similar or better numbers than Driver if they were in his situation (several years in an offense along with a QB the caliber of Favre).

He's been put into a great situation and he's taken advantage of it. Great! That doesn't mean he's an elite talent.

[The Leaper]

Re: Packers WR's vs Other Teams

After he left...that is a foolish argument to make. One, who EVER is good in Detroit besides Barry.

How is that a foolish argument? Why should Bill Schroeder, or any other player, not be viewed in the light of their career as a whole?

BTW...Roy Williams played pretty damn well in Detroit last year. 80 catches, 1300 yds. But who EVER is good in Detroit?

Game, Set, Match.

Glad to know you think you've won the argument over Schroeder as being below average by simply discounting all his years in Detroit as being unacceptable and foolish to evaluate.

I think only Driver's first year in the league is acceptable to evaluate. Driver is actually a piss poor receiver. He shouldn't even be a starter.

Game, Set, Match.