Vick goes to court today....

[Patler]

Why should there be a trial when a guy pleads guilty? That doesn't make an ounce of sense!

the process of getting the guilty plea was flawed. arguably - that is what the argument was about.

FLAWED??? How??

The prosecutor can threaten all he wants, until charges are filed the defendant has no risk. Charges may never be filed. Good defense attorneys know that, they know and understand prosecutorial bluster. They counsel their client accordingly.

It looks like Vick is entering a plea specifically to avoid the second round of charges. Why? Because he knows what he did, he knows the prosecutors know, and he knows right now is as good as it will ever be for him. It will only get worse for him because he knows they got him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

That's probably what the second grand jury scheduled for this week was to consider. It appears that Vick is the one who doesn't want that to happen, so he has caved in without a fight, or even the second set of charges being filed.

The prosecutor also did not want this to happen, they offered a plea deal.

Patler, we disagree on whether that next level of charges are appropriate. I smell that they are heavy-handed. Maybe I would change my mind based on more information. I don't like plea deals where the prosecution uses poor discretion in bringing draconian charges, it subverts justice.

[Harlan Huckleby]

It looks like Vick is entering a plea specifically to avoid the second round of charges. Why? Because he knows what he did, he knows the prosecutors know, and he knows right now is as good as it will ever be for him. It will only get worse for him because he knows they got him.

They don't necessarily "got him". But huge punishments mean huge risks. I wouldn't want to risk 20+ years in prison.

[Patler]

I don't like plea deals where the prosecution uses poor discretion in bringing draconian charges, it subverts justice.

So do I, BUT this appears not to be one of those situations.
Like I stated once before, I think Vick is in a lot deeper than it looks right now. Otherwise, his attorneys would never go for this.

We differ not in how we think prosecutors should do their jobs. We differ in our opinions on what Vick has done. You think he is being dumped on for a low level of culpability. I think he is a lot more of a criminal than has been made public, and he is taking a good deal for himself while it is still available to him.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I think he is a lot more of a criminal than has been made public,

If that's true, then I like this plea deal even less. I'm not buying it, tho.

This is one that should have gone to trial.

[Patler]

It looks like Vick is entering a plea specifically to avoid the second round of charges. Why? Because he knows what he did, he knows the prosecutors know, and he knows right now is as good as it will ever be for him. It will only get worse for him because he knows they got him.

They don't necessarily "got him". But huge punishments mean huge risks. I wouldn't want to risk 20+ years in prison.

That's what good defense attorneys are for, to ensure the charges and ultimately the conviction and penalties meet the crime.

Defense attorneys have an easy time of making a defendant look like a victim when the prosecutor over-charges a crime. The result is often an out and out acquittal. Vick can afford the best, yet they are caving. That tells me a lot about his guilt.

[Freak Out]

I didn't read whats being argued but lets face it; he's guilty as sin.

He wouldn't have taken the plea bargin if there was any chance he was going to win. People will 100 million in the bank just don't do that.

People take plea deals when they are innocent. Now most are not wealthy and have access only to public defenders but it happens...more than most people would imagine. They are threatened and railroaded into making a deal because if they don't " they will spend much more time behind bars if they go to trial and lose". Plea deals = convictions and $$$ savings because you remove the cost of a lengthy trial.

[the_idle_threat]

I agree with Harlan on the principle thing, although I don't necessarily agree with his take on the facts.

I think it's a subtle abuse of goverment power when a prosecutor threatens to bring additonal charges or drop iffy but more serious charges in order to coerce a harder bargain on the plea deal. It does happen (I used to be annoyed about it all the time when Paul Bucher would do it to defendants in Waukesha County) and although lots of tricks and hijinks happen in the criminal legal system on both sides, I don't think prosecutorial bluffing on iffy additional charges serves the best intertests of justice.

People here are quick to assume that Vick must be guilty as sin since the Feds have gotten an indictment and are bothering to bring charges. (i.e. They have a 90+% conviction rate in Federal court so charges MUST = gulity.) But indictments are not foolproof, and if guilt can be assumed based upon charges being brought, then why bother to have Federal trials at all?

That being said, I don't agree that the RICO charges are necessarily excessive, as Harlan apparently believes. We don't know the underlying facts one way or the other. I'm just not willing to assume that they aren't.

Using the threat of additional charges as a scare tactic to force a quick decision on a plea deal just reeks of bullying IMO, and suggests that the additonal charges might be excessive.

[MJZiggy]

The threat of additional charges on the Federal level might be a scare tactic, but the fact that if he pleads guilty then the State of Virginia will prosecute should offset the break he gets not having more charges brought by the Feds. I wonder if the state was in on the negotiations for the plea...?

[Patler]

I think he is a lot more of a criminal than has been made public,

If that's true, then I like this plea deal even less. I'm not buying it, tho.

This is one that should have gone to trial.

Whether or not it went to trial was completely within Vick's control by his plea. The "deal" really isn't even all that much of a deal for Vick from some reports. Consider:

Of the charges that have been entered to date, the maximum time reportedly is 5 years. One prosecutor "insider" reportedly said they will recommend 36 months. First time offenders never get the maximum, so this is not much of a concession.

He did not enter a "no contest" plea. Reportedly he is pleading guilty. Assuming a no contest plea was an option, this is striking, and telling.

Reportedly there has been no "deal" w/r/t possible state charges, further Federal charges for other crimes, or the NFL. Basically, the prosecutors have given him no assurances concerning any of these. nor has the NFL.

If these reports are accurate, he seems to be throwing himself on the mercy of the prosecutor, the judge, the NFL and the public at an early stage, hoping to stave off what he knows can never get any better, only worse, the way I see it.

[Kiwon]

The threat of additional charges on the Federal level might be a scare tactic, but the fact that if he pleads guilty then the State of Virginia will prosecute should offset the break he gets not having more charges brought by the Feds. I wonder if the state was in on the negotiations for the plea...?

MJZ, I have not read much of the news coverage extensively so I was wondering the same thing.

I may be incorrect but what I heard a lawyer say yesterday was if the various state authorities did not join with the Feds in a plea deal then Vick could face state charges separately. It's more than just Virginia since it involved interstate traffic.

Given the nature of these offenses, I would expect the states' AGs to think seriously about going after these guys. I imagine their citizens would demand they do.

While most inmates typically do a 1/3 or 1/2 of their sentences before they are released, the combination of the federal and states offenses might end up giving Vick and co. some significant prison time.

[Rastak]

The threat of additional charges on the Federal level might be a scare tactic, but the fact that if he pleads guilty then the State of Virginia will prosecute should offset the break he gets not having more charges brought by the Feds. I wonder if the state was in on the negotiations for the plea...?

MJZ, I have not read much of the news coverage extensively so I was wondering the same thing.

I may be incorrect but what I heard a lawyer say yesterday was if the various state authorities did not join with the Feds in a plea deal then Vick could face state charges separately. It's more than just Virginia since it involved interstate traffic.

Given the nature of these offenses, I would expect the states' AGs to think seriously about going after these guys. I imagine their citizens would demand they do.

While most inmates typically do a 1/3 or 1/2 of their sentences before they are released, the combination of the federal and states offenses might end up giving Vick and co. some significant prison time.

My understanding is that the state charges are 100% seperate. He has only plead guilty to the federal charges. When or if he signs a statement admitting to hanging, drowning, and electrocuting dogs he decided wasn't tough enough, the state trial will be VERY short since he's essentially testified he did it in a court of law already.

He's screwed.

[retailguy]

He's screwed.

Literally and figuratively....

[Rastak]

He's screwed.

Literally and figuratively....

Amen brother.

[GrnBay007]

You are rebellious,. I like that. I hope we can hang out one day and have fun like that.

Mad and HH......
Something about the idea of that scares me. :P