It’s time to fish or cut bait…

[Merlin]

I am also not convinced that your OL has to be smaller. If you have an athletic guy like a Joe Thomas, just because he is a beast doesn't make him a poor fit. Clifton and Tauscher don't really fit the athletic or smaller part anymore. Clifton is charged with blocking Favre's backside and as far as I am concerned he has done an excellent job over the years.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I am also not convinced that your OL has to be smaller. If you have an athletic guy like a Joe Thomas

Right, which is probably why Denver has a big guy or two on the line.

[Noodle]

You're right Merlin, but guys like Thomas are pretty rare and will cost you a high draft pick or, God forbid, a chunk of coin in FA.

One of the alleged advantages of going ZBS is that you can do it on the cheap. Smaller guys don't cost a premium, they're still there in rounds 4-7, and you can pick them up off the street for a song.

I've never liked ZBS due to the emphasis on cutting, which can be punk, and because smaller OLs need to be technique perfect to provide good pass pro. Remember, this line has never, by itself, shown that it can pass pro without keeping a TE or back in protection. Against the Iggles, or 5 got whipped consistently by their 4. That's a problem.

But I still say give them 5 or 6 games together, as a consistent unit, before scrapping the scheme or the players.

[wist43]

It is if the wholes aren't there. We need to get the backs more involved in the short passing game. We were once great at screen passes, why don't we use them more. Those would have been nice against a blitzing team like Philly.

The running game and short passing game are easy fodder for defenses b/c they don't have to respect our WR's and TE's.

Because defenses don't respect our ability to move the ball thru the air, they can just sit 8-9 guys w/in 5-10 yds of the LOS, and there's no room to operate for the backs in the running game, or in the short passing game.

That problem is exaggerated b/c of the small linemen... they can't mash it straight ahead, and as long as a defense is prepared to cut off the backside they can't run it via "student body left/student body right" either.

Add to that some very pedestrian RB's, and you've got a complete mess.

[swede]

I'm not convinced that going to the ZBS was a bad move--other teams have used it successfully. I understand that smaller, athletic linemen are part of the deal, so you may lose something on 4th and 1. Cut blocking, RB angles, linemen timing, it's all got to come together blah, blah. blah...

This brings up the fundamental concern that Patler had going into the season:
Do we have the coaching to make our running game work?

After the last game Philbin was saying stuff like, "We were using the cut block and getting guys down, but we got them down too early in the play and they got back up again." (to paraphrase)

I'm worried that these coaches are making offensive line play a little harder than it actually is supposed to be.

[Maxie the Taxi]

Don't know if the following was posted earlier or not. It's from the JS blog and has some pertinent info on OL play.


Assistant coaches on....
By Greg A. Bedard
Monday, Sep 10 2007, 05:02 PM
Green Bay - Here are some of the questions and answers we got from assistant coaches the day after the Packers' 16-13 victory over the Philadelphia Eagles:

OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR JOE PHILBIN

When you looked at the film, where did you have the most problems?
There was a little bit of everything. It wasn't one isolated event that was our breakdown. The starting point was initially maybe the course of the running back on the outside zone was maybe a little bit too tight. We felt that wasn't exactly the way we'd like it to be. We got some guys cut (blocked) on the ground, but we'd kind of get them down too fast and the guy would get up and make the play. We have to get that corrected there. There were a few other occasions where we felt the movement at the point of attack wasn't quite enough. Those are three things that we felt caused the most problems in the running game. There were a couple of reads... The first run of the game we felt maybe could have gone outside but I think from a fundamental standpoint: the course of the back, cutting on the backside and movement at the point of the attack were three things we need to get better at, quickly.

Were you surprised that Chad Clifton and Mark Tauscher were giving up some of the pressures?
A little bit, yeah. I mean, yeah. We certainly had high expectations going in that we were confident in our ability to protect the quarterback and thought we would do a better job doing that. I'm sure they're disappointed in themselves, which is probably more important than me being disappointed by, yeah, we certainly went into the game feeling those were two veteran players that have played well here in the past and we were counting on them, sure.

When you don't practice cut blocking in training camp, is it natural for it to takes some time to develop?
Well, we don't necessarily cut our own guys but we spend an awful lot of time on it in drill periods. We were in position a number of different times to make the cut and actually at times cut the guy but we didn't finish the block so (Eagles DT Mike) Patterson would get up or (Brodrick) Bunkley would get up and get involved in the tackle.

So Brandon Jackson didn't play a perfect game, but for a rookie did all right?
Was his course perfect every time? No. Did he have the exact read every time? No. But he protected the football, had a couple good runs in there. Considering where he is in his career, we're not disappointed in what he did.

How did Junius Coston do when he replaced Jason Spitz?
He was solid. He came in and did a nice job. There were one or two times when he gave up some pressure on the quarterback where he didn't handle the spike of the defensive tackle very well and there was one twist that he could have passed off a little bit cleaner, but overall he was solid.

How much is his pushing for a starting job?
We all sat down together and watched the film and evaluated the tape but we really didn't talk personnel yet. We'll probably wait until tomorrow when we set the game plan and determine who's exactly available. Obviously Jason has a little bit of an injury issue. How severe that is, I don't know at this point.

How has Coston improved?
He's been more physical at the point of attack, he's moving guys, he's one of the more physical guys that we have. And we like what he's doing. He's always had that good athleticism.

RUNNING BACKS COACH EDGAR BENNETT

How did Brandon Jackson and DeShawn Wynn look in their first game?
Considering it was their first game, I thought they stepped up and made some plays when they had some opportunities they made some plays. There's still room for improvement. Will run through some areas where they need to improve, but for their first time in the NFL, I thought they did a very good job.

Picking up the blitz?
They did a good job. When you factor in DeShawn Wynn on third down, he did a good job. He knew exactly what his keys were and the different pressure looks he had and he made the necessary adjustments and he did a good job with his techniques.

McCarthy and Philbin brought up their route running and reads. What did you see?
Jackson did a good job on his run reads. Where he needs to improve on is his course as far as his initial aiming point. He needs to get better at that. It's something we're focusing on and he will improve going into this next week.

Can you explain more about a RB's course?
It's his initial starting point. Just like the offensive line and they have an initial starting point, the backs have an initial starting point as well. I'll just kind of leave it at that keeping in mind we're about to play the Giants. I don't want to get too far into it. But that's what he needs to improve on, his course.

Provided Vernand Morency is healthy this week, how is his skill set different than the other backs?
He's been in the system for a year so he has experience as well as he's elusive. The bottom line is he can help us win football games. He's a good football player and I know he's anxious to get back out there. We'll see how it goes this week.

OFFENSIVE LINE COACH JAMES CAMPEN

How did Coston play?
He did OK.

Could Spitz have played?
He was limping pretty good out there so I made a judgment call and put (Coston) in the middle of the series because he looked like he was laboring a little bit for him. So I took him out and I'm glad we did at that time.

How did Spitz react to coming out?
No player likes to be taken out of a series. Jason's a very tough, tough kid. But after you get him down and get him looked at, obviously I think it was a good decision to take him. He actually sat down and get it re-taped. He could have come back into the game but we decided not to push it.

Can you kind of explain the zone blocking scheme?
What you're basically trying to do is stretch the play-call side. So if we run to the right, you want to stretch the right side and you want to cut (block) the defense either with body position or you want to cut them down on the ground. So you look at it as building a wall, stretching the defense and insert the running back where his reads take him.

In a perfect world, what kind of linemen are best in that scheme? Is it like the Broncos under Alex Gibbs?
More like Denver. Smaller, quicker guys.

How does your personnel match up with that scheme?
Very well.

What did you see in the first game out of that group?
Our fundamentals weren't sound. We worked tremendously hard on that this whole offseason and training camp. The players feel the same way, the line, that they need to execute better and display what we're capable of displaying.

Can you put your finger on a reason why maybe they struggled on Sunday?
Any facet of football takes all 11 to execute. We were just off. We were off.

McCarthy said some coaches feel Coston should be under consideration to start at RG. Does that include you?
I don't comment on players. On who's better or who's worse, I never comment on those things.

OK. How would you term the competition there?
I think Juice has clearly made himself as the sixth guy and Juice could be pushing at other positions as well. And he is pushing. If his performance continues to increase... He's a young guy who'd doing a good job at all five positions. And that's tough for a young guy. He doesn't get as many reps at one position. But he's done a very good job to put himself in position to compete for a starting job.

What did you see that made you feel that you needed to take Spitz out?
He was limping pretty good two plays prior to the play where I took him out. He did a good job but he was laboring a little bit so we decided to get him out and get him looked at. Apparently it was the right thing to do.

WIDE RECEIVERS COACH JIMMY ROBINSON

How did James Jones do in his first game?
You know, James overall did a decent job for his time out there in a real live situation. He knew what he was doing, he understood the game plan well and really only had one mistake in terms of assignments. There are some technique things that he needs to continue to work on and improve. But that's kind of a week to week thing. You hope that you get a little bit better every week. So I think James is improving. First time out there, OK. It can be better and I know he feels the same way. Precision, route running and other techniques can get better.

Was he able to get sufficient separation?
I don't have any problems about him going against a secondary like that. He's big and strong and physical and there's things that he could have done better, and there's things he did pretty well. Yeah, he understands how to do it. He just has to do it consistently. But they are a good secondary and they do cause you some route disruptions and things that you have to fight through. I think he held his own and we expect to see him get better and better each week.

How much did losing Greg Jennings late in the week affect what you guys had in mind for the Eagles?
I don't think it changed a lot of what we were going to do. But there were probably a thing or two, maybe, that we had planned to do but we didn't when he wasn't in there. But for the most part, Ruvell (Martin) and Carlyle (Holiday), they know all the positions and they can move in and move and know what they're doing. I don't think it changes your thinking a lot. It just affects you because you want to put your best guys on the field. They're starters because they're your best guys.

That's it for now, guys and gals.

Oh, one more thing.

A few fans were asking why the Packers called timeout with six seconds left on fourth down before Mason Crosby's game-winner. I didn't get a chance to ask McCarthy, but I did talk it over with my much brighter colleague, Tom Silverstein. The reason is basically just to give yourself a cushion. Say the snap was fumbled. The Packers could have run or passed it the 4 yards needed for the first down -- stranger things have happened. Since they had two timeouts left, the Packers could have then called a timeout and tried the kick again. If you take the clock all the way down before calling timeout prior to the kick, you wouldn't get another chance at kicking it before regulation ended.

So, there you go.

[SudsMcBucky]

I'm not convinced that going to the ZBS was a bad move--other teams have used it successfully. I understand that smaller, athletic linemen are part of the deal, so you may lose something on 4th and 1. Cut blocking, RB angles, linemen timing, it's all got to come together blah, blah. blah...

This brings up the fundamental concern that Patler had going into the season:
Do we have the coaching to make our running game work?

After the last game Philbin was saying stuff like, "We were using the cut block and getting guys down, but we got them down too early in the play and they got back up again." (to paraphrase)

I'm worried that these coaches are making offensive line play a little harder than it actually is supposed to be.

I HATE the ZBS. Only Denver has seemed to had sustained success with it. Atlanta's attempt was terrible. Yes, they consistently were one of the top rushing teams in the league, but their stats were misleading due to Vick's scrambling and rushing for 1,000 yards due to pass protection breakdowns. Atlanta has since switched away from that methodology, too, since Petrino took over.

[HarveyWallbangers]

Actually, there are several teams using some form of the ZBS now. Carolina, Minnesota, Houston, Denver, and others. It's similar to the WCO--where many teams are using some type of variation on it. I'm not a huge fan, but it does give you an advantage when finding guys to fit the system. Kind of like the 3-4 teams. Most teams are looking for guys that are different than what you are looking for, so you don't have as much competition for the guys you want for the system.

[Maxie the Taxi]

I'm worried that these coaches are making offensive line play a little harder than it actually is supposed to be.

Here. Here. Today's game is way to complicated IMO. Sometimes I think we need to take a good dose of Vince, "block better than the other guy."

I was watching a replay yesterday of the 1999 NFC wildcard game between Green Bay and San Francisco. Favre hit a key pass for a touchdown to Freeman with less than 2 minutes to go. Favre drew the play up in the huddle. He basically told Free to go down and out after faking a short stop. Holmgren chewed him out afterwards (but not too harshly).

[Merlin]

I think the big problem with the ZBS is that we all but abandoned any other type of running scheme. During pre-season Chris White ran the ball down hill regardless of what the ZBS was doing and did it successfully. They are so concerned about having the one cut back that they over look the obvious. The ZBS doe make it very hard to pick up those 4th and 1's when you need one. Hall is dong an admirable job at FB but he isn't doing a good enough job to make downhill running effective. I don't get why we aren't using multiple schemes with multiple types of running backs instead of announcing "hey we are using the ZBS" and sticking to one cut backs. Some of whom make the wrong friggin cut!

[swede]

I was watching a replay yesterday of the 1999 NFC wildcard game between Green Bay and San Francisco. Favre hit a key pass for a touchdown to Freeman with less than 2 minutes to go. Favre drew the play up in the huddle. He basically told Free to go down and out after faking a short stop. Holmgren chewed him out afterwards (but not too harshly).

"Those were the days my friend, we though they'd never end..."

Favre drawing up a play in the huddle while Holmgren steamed on the sideline...classic mid-90's Pack!

[Maxie the Taxi]

Merlin Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:06 pm Post subject:

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I think the big problem with the ZBS is that we all but abandoned any other type of running scheme. During pre-season Chris White ran the ball down hill regardless of what the ZBS was doing and did it successfully. They are so concerned about having the one cut back that they over look the obvious. The ZBS doe make it very hard to pick up those 4th and 1's when you need one. Hall is dong an admirable job at FB but he isn't doing a good enough job to make downhill running effective. I don't get why we aren't using multiple schemes with multiple types of running backs instead of announcing "hey we are using the ZBS" and sticking to one cut backs. Some of whom make the wrong friggin cut!

I think it's a matter of degree of commitment. I'm no guru either, but from what I've read every team runs some of zone and some of other schemes. The Packers, Denver and Texans just have an all-out commitment to ZBS. I'm not saying they run it all the time. They don't. But they do recruit offensive linemen and running backs with ZBS in mind and they do coach to the ZBS.

My gripe is that if you're gonna be all-out committed to ZBS -- i.e., recruit players whose body type fits the ZBS, teach OL and running backs to function in the ZBS and spend zillions of hours in practice teaching and running the ZBS -- why when it comes to game time do you discard the rush (and ZBS) in favor of pass, pass, pass?