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Originally posted by Carolina_Packer
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Amen! -
When the Bills drafted McGahee (23rd overall), the injury he suffered in the national championship game meant that there was no chance at all that he would play a down during his rookie season. Yet in the following years he grew into a pretty good RB and made solid contributions in Buffalo. Was he a bad pick? Year 2 all the Bills fans were saying it was a brilliant move.Originally posted by Harlan HucklebyEverybody is posting "if Harrell is good next year everything will be fine." Or worse yet, "if he is an all-pro in three years, it will be a good pick."
What a forum full of nitwits.
If Robert Fergusson is an all-pro in three years, that decision to cut him will sure be a bad one. If BJack is good next season, he will be a good 2nd round pick. If I win the lottery I'll surely get laid.
Maybe it's premature to evaluate Harrell based on what he's shown so far. But at least it's dealing with reality.
I just don't agree with the theory that "first round picks need to make an immediate impact or they're a waste." The guys who can make an immediate impact are rare and go very early in the draft, you don't get a shot at them at at 16 unless the draft is incredibly unusual. When you're drafting out of the top 10, you frequently (if not always) draft guys on their pedigree and their potential, not what they'll do for you right away. I mean how good have Jarvis Moss, Leon Hall, Michael Griffin, Aaron Ross, Reggie Nelson, Dwayne Bowe, Brady Quinn, Brandon Merriweather, Jon Beason, Anthony Spencer, Robert Meachem, Ben Grubs, and Craig Davis so far? I honestly don't think there's a lot we could have gotten with that pick that would have helped us more than Harrell so far. Has Harrell been disappointing so far? I think even he'd even tell you so. But does that really say anything about the long term value of the pick?
People's psychology about the draft is all messed up. "Getting Matt Leinart makes the cardinals an immediate contender" but "the Bills f-ed up when they took Donte Whitner", but "the 49ers Vernon Davis will make their offense unstoppable." That's all hogwash. You don't usually draft a guy because of what he'll do for you right away, that's what free agency is for, you draft a guy because of what he'll do for you over the entirety of his career all of which lies ahead of him.
If nothing else, having Harrell makes the "extend Corey Williams" decision much simpler. Also, please nobody come up and say "we should have taken the deal the Browns offered", I've explained again and again in those threads that the deal the Browns offered was actually a very poor deal by the points, and it wouldn't have helped us this year any more.</delurk>Comment
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This forum is like an ant farms look at society.Originally posted by 3irty1Comment
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Cop out.Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers
If Harrell had been a gangbuster this past summer, and currently led the team in tackles, you wouldn't hear the nitwits say, "Ya, he's doing well. But we need to wait two years to know whether TT made a good pick."
One can ALWAYS say "time will tell." But it's lame, and against the spirit in which internet forums were founded. That would be the spirit of mouthing off. Stand and deliver!Comment
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Ahh yes. Grandstanding, bitching and complaining in a consequence free environment. SIT and deliver!Originally posted by Harlan HucklebyOriginally posted by 3irty1Comment
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you're a real fun guy, Zool.Comment
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We all play our part.Originally posted by 3irty1Comment
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Originally posted by Harlan Huckleby
My point is even simpler: grading Harrell at this time is nitwittian.Comment
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Count me in the can't be graded for ~3 years camp.sigpicComment
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Good ol' NFL.com. Here is the 1st round draft results and a list of those players who are active and contributing. I went to each team's depth chart and dragged the mouse cursor over the player's name to show number of games and stats. For O-lineman, it just shows games and games started.
According to this, the only teams not getting anything from their first rounders right now are Oakland, for contract hold-out reasons obviously, Justin Harrell, who is listed 3rd on the depth chart, Brady Quinn, who is a backup QB to Derrick Anderson, and Robert Meachem who has been not been active for a game this year. What's up with those Vols? Late bloomers, I guess.
This is not to say JH won't develop. I sure hope he does, since he's under contract. It simply points out the obvious that he has not made an impact of any kind, and that's concerning. Can he rebound? Sure. Will he make his mark? Should we have seen signs of why he was drafted in the first round? I think so. Have we? Again, this is not to say he won't be something special, just that he has limped from the gate in his career compared to the other first rounders. Is it all related to his injury last year? I don't know, but something is holding back his ability to be an immedate contributor, and you see strong evidence that most of this year's crop have found a way to make an immediate contribution or impact for their respective team. You discount Russell and Quinn because they haven't had the chance to start/play. You cannot disagree that drafting almost any other player from #16 on would have given the Packers someone who would have shown more immedately. That's all I'm saying. I agree with those who say we didn't need him in order to be 3-0, and who knows how many of these guys have had a big impact on their respective teams, but most, if not all have been active and contributing. Hopefully JH can get it in gear.
# Team Player Pos Active or Contributing?
1 Oakland JaMarcus Russell QB Active, late signee
2 Detroit Calvin Johnson WR Active and Contributing
3 Cleveland Joe Thomas OT Active and Contributing
4 Tampa Bay Gaines Adams DE Active and Contributing
5 Arizona Levi Brown OT Active and Contributing
6 Washington LaRon Landry FS Active and Contributing
7 Minnesota Adrian Peterson RB Active and Contributing
8 Atlanta Jamaal Anderson DE Active and Contributing
9 Miami Ted Ginn Jr. WR Active and Contributing
10 Houston Amobi Okoye DT Active and Contributing
11 San Francisco Patrick Willis ILB Active and Contributing
12 Buffalo Marshawn Lynch RB Active and Contributing
13 St. Louis Adam Carriker DE Active and Contributing
14 N.Y. Jets Darrelle Revis CB Active and Contributing, late signee
15 Pittsburgh Lawrence Timmons OLB Active and Contributing
16 Green Bay Justin Harrell DT Not Active
17 Denver Jarvis Moss DE Active and Contributing
18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB Active and Contributing
19 Tennessee Michael Griffin FS Active and Contributing
20 N.Y. Giants Aaron Ross CB Active and Contributing
21 Jacksonville Reggie Nelson FS Active and Contributing
22 Cleveland Brady Quinn QB Active, has not played
23 Kansas City Dwayne Bowe WR Active and Contributing
24 New England Brandon Meriweather FS Active and Contributing
25 Carolina Jon Beason OLB Active and Contributing
26 Dallas Anthony Spencer DE Active and Contributing
27 New Orleans Robert Meachem WR Not Active
28 San Francisco Joe Staley OT Active and Contributing
29 Baltimore Ben Grubbs G Active, has not played or started
30 San Diego Craig Davis WR Active and Contributing
31 Chicago Greg Olsen TE Injured weeks 1,2 Active/Contributing Wk3
32 Indianapolis Anthony Gonzalez WR Active and Contributing"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." -Daniel Patrick MoynihanComment
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Im not sure if Im a nitwit or not. I have mixed feelings on Harrell the player. He had a decent showing in the preseason but I sure would like to have at least seen him out there taking some snaps during garbage time at the end of the giants game.
But JustinHarrell the poster? He is showing signs that he may be mentally unfit to be an everydown poster.Comment
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Here's another way to look at it.
Of the guys drafted 15th or later, only 4 are starting. Two of them are starting because of an injury. One would be starting, but he is injured. Sorry, but I don't know what the panic is. A lot of these other teams drafted for need, so it makes sense that some of these guys would be starting. Even then, not that many are. If Green Bay was as weak at DT as Kansas City is at WR, Harrell would probably be starting. Big deal. I'm not big on drafting for need in the first round. Never have been. It got Sherman, and even Wolf, in trouble numerous times. Jon Michel was a need pick. Antuan Edwards was a need pick. Jamal Reynolds was a need pick. Bubba Franks was a need pick.Originally posted by Carolina_Packer
None of these other guys tore their biceps last year and could workout in the offseason. Give me a break. You draft for down the line. Green Bay is strong at DT. That doesn't mean they will be strong two years from now. Williams is a FA. There's no telling what kind of shape Pickett will be in a couple of years from now. Again, I'll wait at least 2 years, and probably into his third year, to judge Harrell."There's a lot of interest in the draft. It's great. But quite frankly, most of the people that are commenting on it don't know anything about what they are talking about."--Ted ThompsonComment
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I agree with the drafting for team development and future projection. It's just interesting to note the disparity between the contributions of first rounders right away, and you pointed out why in some cases that is. I agree with a strong DL and OL philosophy. We've certainly seen times when not having neither has affected us negatively, so I understand setting yourself up to be good for a long time and having depth. All good with me. But, it is true that others are getting more immediate returns on their investment. We'll see who has the longer-term returns in terms of impact.Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." -Daniel Patrick MoynihanComment
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I disagree. Few of the players drafted after Harrell are really making any meaningful contribution. Most of the ones that are are actually doing so to their team's DETRIMENT...the team would likely be better with a capable veteran, but is choosing to take the growing pains now to get a quicker payoff in the future or are forced to because of injury.Originally posted by Carolina_Packer
Our 4 game winning streak to close last season took away a chance to land someone who could make an immediate impact. It is extremely rare to land someone outside of the first 10-15 picks that is a major contributor from week one.
You draft someone based on their potential to produce over a career...not the first year. Most players take 2-4 years to come into their own and make any meaningful contributions...and the vast evidence pertaining to the position we are discussing (DT) shows that almost all rookies take longer than usual to develop properly. The difference in strength and speed, especially what is needed from their own body, is even larger in the trenches than anywhere else on the field for a college player to adjust to.My signature has NUDITY in it...whatcha gonna do?Comment
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Small point of order.Originally posted by HarveyWallbangers
18 Cincinnati Leon Hall CB - Backup
He's starting and floundering like a fish on the deck.
I doubt any of the list from 15 down is setting the world on fire. Harrell impresses me in the brief bit he played. He picked that ball in the pre-season and took it back for 6. That was a good play. He controlled the hell out of his man, pushed him in the backfield and shed him. He kept awareness of the play, saw the ball, picked it and took it home. That was some real Alan Page stuff. I know people would like to see a lot more from a 1.
Rookies sometimes don't get it. Harrell vastly underestimated where he had to have his cardio. He was in college shape, not pro shape. It's a learning process and he got a big lesson. Sitting a kid like him shows that the coaches know what they are doing. I think we got a good one and we will see big stuff out of him.
Maybe I'm wrong, that wouldn't be a first, either.Comment
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