Collins coming all the way back?

[mraynrand]

I would never characterize Collins or Poppinga as 'just a guy.' .... 'Just a guy' really applies to backups who may not even be active on gameday.

I am certain you grew up in Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average.

Nope. But you're far less likely to have NFL below average guys on a top 5 (edit: top 6 - Packers are 2nd in point allowed and 10th in yards - average of the two is 6th) defense. And my definition of 'just a guy' -a s backups or marginal starters - is completely consistent with where the Packers are as a team and where Collins and Popping fit in on that team.

here's the Packer staring defense for 1999:


Vaughn Booker*
Santana Dotson*
Gilbert Brown*
Vonnie Holliday
George Koonce*
Bernardo Harris
Jude Waddy*
Mike McKenzie
Darren Sharper
LeRoy Butler
Tyrone Williams

The five guys with asterisks I would qualify as 'Just guys' and Harris was close. That was an average to below average NFL defense (actually, they were 12th by the same criteria as above - imagine that). There's no comparison with those 'just guys' and Collins or Poppinga.

BTW, the backups at D-line were Hunt, Smith, Lyon and McKenzie. What a pile of crap that was.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I think Collins is the weakest player on the starting defense.

I think it's Brady Poppinga, and I'm not even that unhappy with him. We have a damn good defense. Not historically great, but perhaps good enough to win a Super Bowl with.

[RashanGary]

Collins has had a good year. He's done a great job not letting anyone get by him. I would be suprised if Rouse beat him out this year, but it wouldn't suprise me if he lost his job over the next couple years.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The five guys with asterisks I would qualify as 'Just guys' and Harris was close. That was an average to below average NFL defense (actually, they were 12th by the same criteria as above - imagine that). There's no comparison with those 'just guys' and Collins or Poppinga.

Leroy Butler was just a guy at this point in his career. Bernardo Harris was not too bad.

Nick Collins is no better than those past "just guys", you just don't know it because he's with better teammates.

It's unlikely that Rouse can turn into an upgrade in three or four games. But not impossible.

[Green Bud Packer]

The five guys with asterisks I would qualify as 'Just guys' and Harris was close. That was an average to below average NFL defense (actually, they were 12th by the same criteria as above - imagine that). There's no comparison with those 'just guys' and Collins or Poppinga.

Leroy Butler was just a guy at this point in his career.

Leroy Butler had superstar written all over him from day one.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Leroy Butler had superstar written all over him from day one.

And a fat ass his last two years in the league.

He is one of my all time favorites. But the last year in particular was a little hard to watch.

[KYPack]

Collins has had a good year. He's done a great job not letting anyone get by him. I would be suprised if Rouse beat him out this year, but it wouldn't suprise me if he lost his job over the next couple years.

Ah, Remember the Bears game?

Nick and Pop (our JAGS, I guess) both blew cover on the tight end at a critical juncture and allow a big 6 for the hated ones.

That said, I've always liked Nick. He's got a lot of skills and is usually in position to make a play. The boy just doesn't close a lot. I've always felt Nick's progress has been retarded by lack of a competant partner. Manual talked a big game, but couldn't execute. This lead to an overall lack of confidence in the D backfield.

I think Bigby will help Nick and they will become a good safety tandem. I think Nick will be OK if his knee gets sound.

Nick in the nickel as the nickel back?

No.

That's a the job for a slot corner. That's the spot teams put their 3rd best corner and groom him to start. That's where Al Harris played in Philly before our wily GM scooped him up for a 2nd rnd pick.

I like Rouse, too. He's just green as goose poop and will take a good while to learn the job.

[mraynrand]

Leroy Butler had superstar written all over him from day one.

And a fat ass his last two years in the league.

He is one of my all time favorites. But the last year in particular was a little hard to watch.

It was hard to watch him go off the field with a career-ending injury in the loss to Atlanta. The secondary sucked even worse after that. Far more painful than watching Butler was watching Akins, McBride and then Bahwoh Jue take over for Butler. Losing Butler that year ruined the secondary, which was pretty decent with McKenzie, Williams, Sharper, and Butler.

[mraynrand]

The five guys with asterisks I would qualify as 'Just guys' and Harris was close. That was an average to below average NFL defense (actually, they were 12th by the same criteria as above - imagine that). There's no comparison with those 'just guys' and Collins or Poppinga.

Leroy Butler was just a guy at this point in his career. Bernardo Harris was not too bad.

Nick Collins is no better than those past "just guys", you just don't know it because he's with better teammates.

It's unlikely that Rouse can turn into an upgrade in three or four games. But not impossible.

HH, you don't even know what you're writing about. IN 1999 Sharper had a huge year with over 100 tackles (the D-line sucked), Butler had about 70. Sharper had 3INTs to Butler's 2. They each had a sack and fumble recovered.

and in 2000, Butler was still getting the numbers, next to pro bowler Sharper

T S A sack INT T yrds Ave
Leroy Butler 93 65 28 2.0 2 25 12.5
Darren Sharper 92 72 20 1.0 9 109 12.1


Finally, anything is possible with Rouse, but you're basing it on absolutely NOTHING tangible.

[Harlan Huckleby]

and in 2000, Butler was still getting the numbers, next to pro bowler Sharper
T S A sack INT T yrds Ave
Leroy Butler 93 65 28 2.0 2 25 12.5
Darren Sharper 92 72 20 1.0 9 109 12.1

Did you watch the games? Butler was embarassing his last season, and slowly fading for a couple years prior. Are you saying this is not true?
1999 was a little early, I didn't know exactly the year he retired. Get Butler's stats for tackles and intercpetions and compare to his glory days. And more importantly, be honest. Nobody who watched the games could dispute that Butler faded fast and deep towards the end.

Finally, anything is possible with Rouse, but you're basing it on absolutely NOTHING tangible.

I'm basing it on his size and a few brief looks. That is not nothing. I said from the start I am mainly just engaged in hopeful thinking.

As far as Nick Collins, I have seen him play for a few years, and he does nothing particularly well. You can keep calling him "above average", that doesn't make it so. Except possibly in your mind, which is fine, it's all just opinion.

[RashanGary]

He's the last line of defense on the NFL's #2 scoring defense. He had to be doing something right.

[Harlan Huckleby]

He's the last line of defense on the NFL's #2 scoring defense. He had to be doing something right.

You talking about Rouse?

BTW, does anybody remember how the scout evaluated Collins in McGinn's annual Blue-Red-Green-Yellow roster survey this year?

[mraynrand]

I'm basing it on his size and a few brief looks. That is not nothing. I said from the start I am mainly just engaged in hopeful thinking.

Pretty weak stuff

As far as Nick Collins, I have seen him play for a few years, and he does nothing particularly well. You can keep calling him "above average", that doesn't make it so. Except possibly in your mind, which is fine, it's all just opinion.

Typical relativist HH. All opinions are the same, right? even though yours are based on 'hopeful thinking' and mine are based on statistics and evaluation of game play. For example, you argue with saying Collins is above average, yet his stats in 2005 and 2006 are 130 tackles and 4 INTs, compared to Brian Dawkins who got about 147 tackles and 7 INTs. Dawkins had more passes defensed, but he plays in a different scheme that Collins and is allowed to play more aggressively rather than play center field. Plus, Dawkins is considered one of the games' finest safeties. The Eagles' other safeties numbers' are identical to Collins.' You know Sharpers' numbers over the past two years. The safeties playing next to Sharper, on one of the NFLs' best defenses had 120 tackles and 6 INTs, including 4 last year by Dwight Smith, a super bowl winning pro bowler. Last year, in four games, Bob Sanders had 20 tackles and one INT (80 and 4 projected over a season) in 2005, he had 72 and 1. So Collins is essentially a notch below the level of pro bowl safeties on the leagues' finest defensive backfields.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm basing it on his size and a few brief looks. That is not nothing. I said from the start I am mainly just engaged in hopeful thinking.

Pretty weak stuff.

No kidding! I have said all along I don't know much about Rouse. He hasn't played. And when he does, he'll have growing pains.

As far as opinions: your opinion is no better than anybody else's. Stats do not tell a complete story, especially tackles. If you didn't recognize how chubby, slow and ineffective Butler was in his last year, I have to say you aren't so keen.

Putting Dawkins and Collins in the same sentence is ridiculous. Watch the games.

[mraynrand]

I'm basing it on his size and a few brief looks. That is not nothing. I said from the start I am mainly just engaged in hopeful thinking.

Pretty weak stuff.

No kidding! I have said all along I don't know much about Rouse. He hasn't played. And when he does, he'll have growing pains.

As far as opinions: your opinion is no better than anybody else's. Stats do not tell a complete story, especially tackles. If you didn't recognize how chubby, slow and ineffective Butler was in his last year, I have to say you aren't so keen.

But according to you, no one's opinion is any better than anyone else's. So my opinion is that Butler was the finest safety in the NFL in 2001. And, based on your own words, you have to say that my view is just as good as the guy who says that Chris Akins is as fine a safety as Brian Dawkins. It's hell being trapped by your own pathetically foolish words, isn't it?