McCain kicking major ass

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

Trust? How can we trust someone when you can't figure out what they stand for.

It's all relative Bigguns.

Obviously, no one in politics is anywhere close to 100% trustworthy. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in politics.

Quotes also can be taken out of context. In terms of the Iraq war, the actual overthrow of Saddam's regime WAS easy. The hard part was going to be the rebuilding and reconstruction of a new government in a region that is unstable and hostile to democracy by and large. What was McCain actually referring to in his quotes? You need the whole context, not just some cut and paste job.

I live in AZ. Everybody here knows how much he has sold his soul and flip flopped.

War: Sorry, but he was squarely in the no problems after we win camp. McCain never was in the "what are we gonna do after Saddam is topped" camp.

You can't deny his reversals.

He is to me like the Bush 1 (calling out voodoo econ, etc.). I had enormous respect till they both let their fever for the presidency lead them down the rabbit hole.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

War: Sorry, but he was squarely in the no problems after we win camp. McCain never was in the "what are we gonna do after Saddam is topped" camp.

Maybe so, but he was one of the very first politicians to say Rumsfeld was on the wrong track. BTW, the first person to call for Rumsfeld's resignation was Bill Kristol, evil neocon. (I am an evil neocon of storts myself.) The pro-war people were the first to recognize the incompetence of the post-war policies, they had more of a personal stake in the war's success.

As far as your list of McCain flip-flops, a number of them are exaggerations, ethanol and tax-cuts for instance. Lets say he has a nuanced position.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

War: Sorry, but he was squarely in the no problems after we win camp. McCain never was in the "what are we gonna do after Saddam is topped" camp.

Maybe so, but he was one of the very first politicians to say Rumsfeld was on the wrong track. BTW, the first person to call for Rumsfeld's resignation was Bill Kristol, evil neocon. (I am an evil neocon of storts myself.) The pro-war people were the first to recognize the incompetence of the post-war policies, they had more of a personal stake in the war's success.

As far as your list of McCain flip-flops, a number of them are exaggerations, ethanol and tax-cuts for instance. Lets say he has a nuanced position.

Rummy: True. Can't deny that.

Pro war: That is debatable. Plenty of against the war saw the problems right away, or predicted the inevitable problems.

The neo cons like Kristol had to blame Rummy. They had to blame execution instead of their general philosophy.

McCain: Nuanced. LOL. C'mon.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

The neo cons like Kristol had to blame Rummy. They had to blame execution instead of their general philosophy.

But how can you blame their philosophy when the execution was so abysmal? Intervention in Yugolslavia, for instance, was a success, and can only be blamed for coming so late. Many of the same people against the war in Iraq were against that action. The neocons - especially Perle & Kristol - were on the right side of history in Yugolsavia.

I think best-case scenerio in Iraq would have still been a difficult transition, much more difficult than I and Kristol thought. We'd still need troops there today even if things had been managed properly.

My own position has evolved. I think if Iraq had been a success, it would have just led Bush to get us into a wider and more destructive war. I'm afraid the Iraq intervention was doomed because of our arrogant leadership and a lack of international support.

[hoosier]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

The neo cons like Kristol had to blame Rummy. They had to blame execution instead of their general philosophy.

But how can you blame their philosophy when the execution was so abysmal? Intervention in Yugolslavia, for instance, was a success, and can only be blamed for coming so late. Many of the same people against the war in Iraq were against that action. The neocons - especially Perle & Kristol - were on the right side of history in Yugolsavia.

I think Tyrone is right. Blame the implementer so that the ideology being implemented can blend into today's conventional wisdom. In that sense you could say the neocons needed people like Rummy, Ashcroft and Gonzalez to become fall guys. Displace the focus from where it should be (on the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the invasion, of the Patriot Act, etc.) and focus it purely on how these things have been carried out.

Although the point about how "dove" and "hawk" positions have become slippery during Clinton and Bush administrations is very interesting, the Yugoslavia analogy is baffling. So many differences...how would we even begin to compare with Iraq?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

I think Tyrone is right. Blame the implementer so that the ideology being implemented can blend into today's conventional wisdom. In that sense you could say the neocons needed people like Rummy, Ashcroft and Gonzalez to become fall guys.

You and Tyrone are simply assuming that their ideology is wrong. If the ideology was wrong, then yes, you could say that Rummy et al are fall guys for a doomed ideology.

But we haven't even begun to discuss the merits of their ideology.

the Yugoslavia analogy is baffling. So many differences...how would we even begin to compare with Iraq?

the commonality is in the idealogy: that American military power should be used for promotion of democracy and human rights (with consideration for American interests.)

[hoosier]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

I think Tyrone is right. Blame the implementer so that the ideology being implemented can blend into today's conventional wisdom. In that sense you could say the neocons needed people like Rummy, Ashcroft and Gonzalez to become fall guys.

You and Tyrone are simply assuming that their ideology is wrong. If the ideology was wrong, then yes, you could say that Rummy et al are fall guys for a doomed ideology.

But we haven't even begun to discuss the merits of their ideology.

You're right, I do assume it's wrong, but that's not the point I'm making here. My point is that the Bush doctrine makes a radical break with foreign policy principles that US administrations have upheld in name (not always in reality of course) since the early 19th century. The intention after 9/11 was to impose that kind of change without allowing any room for real debate--which should have happened whether the ideology was justified or not.

[hoosier]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

the commonality is in the idealogy: that American military power should be used for promotion of democracy and human rights (with consideration for American interests.)

I don't see it that way. Iraq is different because it involves violation of the principle of state sovereignty in the absence of both international consensus and any evident threat posed by the "rogue state." Preventive war and unilateral violation of state sovereignty definitely don't apply to Yugoslavia.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

I think Tyrone is right. Blame the implementer so that the ideology being implemented can blend into today's conventional wisdom. In that sense you could say the neocons needed people like Rummy, Ashcroft and Gonzalez to become fall guys.

You and Tyrone are simply assuming that their ideology is wrong. If the ideology was wrong, then yes, you could say that Rummy et al are fall guys for a doomed ideology.

But we haven't even begun to discuss the merits of their ideology.

the Yugoslavia analogy is baffling. So many differences...how would we even begin to compare with Iraq?

the commonality is in the idealogy: that American military power should be used for promotion of democracy and human rights (with consideration for American interests.)

No, i'm not assuming the ideology is wrong. Regardless of ideology, who were they going to blame for the lack of success? The MSM? LOL

Yugo: You are really pushing it. I don't seem to recall democracy being the reason we went to Iraq. I recall something about a mushroom cloud, etc.

You are correct that if they were successful, Iran was next.

[Freak Out]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

I think Tyrone is right. Blame the implementer so that the ideology being implemented can blend into today's conventional wisdom. In that sense you could say the neocons needed people like Rummy, Ashcroft and Gonzalez to become fall guys.

You and Tyrone are simply assuming that their ideology is wrong. If the ideology was wrong, then yes, you could say that Rummy et al are fall guys for a doomed ideology.

But we haven't even begun to discuss the merits of their ideology.

the Yugoslavia analogy is baffling. So many differences...how would we even begin to compare with Iraq?

the commonality is in the idealogy: that American military power should be used for promotion of democracy and human rights (with consideration for American interests.)

No, i'm not assuming the ideology is wrong. Regardless of ideology, who were they going to blame for the lack of success? The MSM? LOL

Yugo: You are really pushing it. I don't seem to recall democracy being the reason we went to Iraq. I recall something about a mushroom cloud, etc.

You are correct that if they were successful, Iran was next.

..and democracy was not the reason we went to and are still in the former Yugoslavia (Kosovo) if I remember correctly.....it was to prevent a possible genocide.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

..and democracy was not the reason we went to and are still in the former Yugoslavia (Kosovo) if I remember correctly.....it was to prevent a possible genocide.

right. aggressive action in the name of human rights is a big part of the neocon ideology.

this word "neocon" is a brand name that has turned into "neo nazi" from misrepresentation. Much of their ideology has a great deal of appeal to a bleeding heart liberal such as myself. They are very different from, even opposed to isolationist conservatives and libertarians, or real politik hawks of the Henry Kissinger lineage.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

No, i'm not assuming the ideology is wrong. Regardless of ideology, who were they going to blame for the lack of success? The MSM? LOL.

Does "MSM" have something to do with Bill Gates?

I think the war in Iraq was a mistake because it was under-resourced. I was naive about what was required. And no international support = no go. And I wouldn't support George Bush leading any such effort.

But do not be shocked if 10 or 12 years from now, this adventure is viewed as a great turning point in world history - for the better. If Iraq does become a stable state, and evolves into a democracy, that could have the transforming effect that the neocons originally crowed about. Compare this to the likely alternative: a brutal, dangerous dictatorship of Uday & Qusay Hussein. And sorry to sound cold, but the price of 6000 American lives will seem like a small war. (The suffering of Iraq people in this transition is more horrible, yes)

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

Iraq is different because it involves violation of the principle of state sovereignty in

Give me a break. The first Gulf War never really ended. Iraq was still patroled by U.S. aircraft, with periodic bombing. Hussein was NOT complying with weapons inspections, despite misinformation to the contrary, he only became cooperative after 100,000 U.S. troops were sitting in Kuwait. The country was under sanctions that Noam Chomsky claimed was killing 50,000 young children and babies every year.

This was not a normal, soveriegn state.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

..and democracy was not the reason we went to and are still in the former Yugoslavia (Kosovo) if I remember correctly.....it was to prevent a possible genocide.

right. aggressive action in the name of human rights is a big part of the neocon ideology.

this word "neocon" is a brand name that has turned into "neo nazi" from misrepresentation. Much of their ideology has a great deal of appeal to a bleeding heart liberal such as myself. They are very different from, even opposed to isolationist conservatives and libertarians, or real politik hawks of the Henry Kissinger lineage.

Human rights? LOL Where are they in africa? Actually, where are they in the U.S.? We here in maricopa county, under sheriff joe, have a jail that amnesty international has called out..not to mention guantanamo. Or our allies like the saudis.

They are only interested in out of the way countries that have special interest for our country.

MSM: Rush speak..mainstream media.

neocons: do you really believe in the project for the new american century?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: McCain kicking major ass

They are only interested in out of the way countries that have special interest for our country.

There was no special American interest in Bosnia or Kosovo, other than a general desire for stability in Europe. The main thrust was moral, to stem genocide or violence.

You are right, though. They are not purely for humanitarian intervention, practical considerations are also weighed.