How Voters Think

[Partial]

write a business plan and see what happens Zig. Scott is right, until you sit down and write a formal plan that you can present to investers you won't get anywhere.

[hoosier]

Working people don't deserve to live in those cool cities. They should only live in montana or the dakotas.

I don't know about the Dakotas, our own forum has a unpleasant record with Dakotans, but Montana is very cool. Beautiful country, lots of beautiful people escape there. I think working people should be settled in Indiana & Ohio where they can be with their kind.

Bite your tongue, Harlan. We don't work here in Indiana, we sit around collecting welfare checks, I mean tax rebates, I mean farm payoffs. But at least we don't have a town called Platteville....

[SkinBasket]

Little did I know so much entertainment was hidden in such a poorly titled thread. Now I'm going to have to read the whole fucking thing.

[GrnBay007]

Some day (after my kids are grown and I'm really established), I plan on helping some kid who's in a bad situation. I'll find someone who's drinking, has a rough family life and really wants to make it happen. I know he won't want help (I never have and denied it when it was offered) but I'll convince one of those messed up little fuckers to take my help and promise to do the same for some kid, some day. It's something I really want to do. Closure or something.

That's cool! And I have a feeling someday when things are extremely stable, you will be able to help out some kid....to what extent, who knows....but your experiences will be a good teacher.

This got me thinking about something that is off topic...but I've seen this type of thing several times and just recently again. Ever see a well off family adopt a baby....and the child ends up getting into all kinds of trouble...even though they've been given opportunities some only dream about? When that happens you hear all kinds of people say that it's all in the genetics and where that baby came from and there is no way to change that. That gives adoption a bad rap. What JH said got me wondering that maybe the reason a child goes on to get in trouble is not so much genetics as it is the "well-off" parents can't relate and adjust to the lifestyle this child has come from because it's totally out of their realm. I've always thought the best teachers are those that have experienced life problems themselves. It's like a substance abuse counselor that never had a problem themselves trying to counsel an addict. The addict has no respect for that teacher because they've never been there themselves. Anyway, just some rambling thoughts, because, like I said I've just encountered this type of thing recently through a work contact.

[MJZiggy]

Some day (after my kids are grown and I'm really established), I plan on helping some kid who's in a bad situation. I'll find someone who's drinking, has a rough family life and really wants to make it happen. I know he won't want help (I never have and denied it when it was offered) but I'll convince one of those messed up little fuckers to take my help and promise to do the same for some kid, some day. It's something I really want to do. Closure or something.

That's cool! And I have a feeling someday when things are extremely stable, you will be able to help out some kid....to what extent, who knows....but your experiences will be a good teacher.

This got me thinking about something that is off topic...but I've seen this type of thing several times and just recently again. Ever see a well off family adopt a baby....and the child ends up getting into all kinds of trouble...even though they've been given opportunities some only dream about? When that happens you hear all kinds of people say that it's all in the genetics and where that baby came from and there is no way to change that. That gives adoption a bad rap. What JH said got me wondering that maybe the reason a child goes on to get in trouble is not so much genetics as it is the "well-off" parents can't relate and adjust to the lifestyle this child has come from because it's totally out of their realm. I've always thought the best teachers are those that have experienced life problems themselves. It's like a substance abuse counselor that never had a problem themselves trying to counsel an addict. The addict has no respect for that teacher because they've never been there themselves. Anyway, just some rambling thoughts, because, like I said I've just encountered this type of thing recently through a work contact.

That's a fascinating concept. They should be studying things like this rather than whether a twin that is not bullied does better than the one who is (duh). Same concept is the priest as a marriage counselor.

[hoosier]

It also might create incentive for people to take their ball and go home so to speak. If you had such wealth, what's to keep you from just leaving the country? Costa Rica would be happy to let me keep more of my money, if I'd pump just a little bit of it into their economy instead of the USA's.

The problem with your "take my marbles and go home" theory is that it vastly oversimplifies the context or contexts in which the rich became rich to begin with. One doesn't make money in a vaccuum, and one doesn't make it in a jungle (literal or metaphorical) either too often. What is often left out of the "got rich" and "pulled himself up by his own bootstraps" stories are the various ways government supports and helps provide opportunities for making money. If it sounds like I'm giving all the credit to Big Government, consider what happens in places where that support doesn't exist, either because official ideology is opposed to it or because the state is just too weak. Ask youself why more wealthy US citizens aren't moving to Costa Rica or some other tax haven.

I have a lot of sympathy for the sentiment that we have too much government in some respects. But I've also lived in countries that had extremely weak states (not just corrupt police and no tradition of law and order, but no support for social services), and I'll take the good old Welfare State over that any day.

[GrnBay007]

I would love to start a business, a little yarn shop in the antique district,..........

Hell, I'd love to start a little yarn shop in the antique district too. It sounds like a blast. But I slave away at my job because I have to earn a living - not because its my favorite thing to do in life. I mean no disrespect here, but that sounds more like a lifestyle choice than a business plan.

I agree. There is a huge difference between a lifestyle choice, earning a living and survival. There are several other things I'd like to do right now, but paying a mortgage and taking care of 2 kids dictate otherwise....so I go to a job everyday that, while it's ok and pays the bills, I can't say I'd rather be doing something else. Time does take it's toll. I've been doing this job for 12 years. Depends on the situation....sometimes the survival part hits you, like JH described, and you have to go with the flow. After I graduated from college, I got a job in my field and worked it 2 years. This was not exactly what I wanted and when my 2 brothers approached me about opening a bar/restaurant business, I took them up on it. The next 3 years were great...probably the best/funnest time of my life. Not to say it wasn't hard work....in addition to the bar/restaurant we had sand volleyball leagues and weekend tournaments with live bands. It was easily 12-14 hours a day with one day off a week. Well, that all ended when the business was destroyed by a fire. Went from one day with income to one day with absolutely NO income. Insurance money was tied up for years because it there was an arson investigation. Unemployment income was barely anything because I was paid 1/2 check and 1/2 cash from the "slush fund". So yeah, that's when survival kicks in. This was before I was married so had no other income to depend on.....had to pay for my home and a car payment. So with a college degree, I went out and worked 3 PT jobs.....worked as a bartender, in a sub shop and got a temp job PT that was a far stretch from my field but at least it paid decent. During this time kept looking for jobs in my field and finally found one.....been there since. Thing is, when survival calls, you do what you need to do....who cares if it's Wendy's (JH) or me working in a sub shop with a college education. Thing is....the ship is never going to come in if you are not out there trying...and taking chances.

[RashanGary]

Nice story 007. It's the same survival concept. People are stronger than they know. They just don't know because they are being held down by people who think they are helping.

There is a little bit of "feel good" that comes with making your own success too. You kind of want to keep it rolling and stack goals on goals as they are accomplished. It's hard to stack goals on goals when all you do is collect a welfare check every week.

I'm not against all social programs either. Medical care to a family that is going back to school after their job gets shipped over seas or to a family who decides they want to go back to school to get an education is good. Maybe child care for a mom that wants to attned school, work and care for her childeren. Things like that. You know, people who are willing to help themselves, but it's just a little bit too far out of reach.

People who do not care to better their situation do not deserve an ounce of help. If you want that cruddy job, that's up to you. If you can't pry yourself away from drugs long enough to have an ounce of real happiness in your life, that's not our problem. Those are not government problems. Those are people problems. Problems they need to deal with on the street for all I care and who knows, maybe it will get bad enough that they hit bottom and turn it around.

[MJZiggy]

Who said I'm not out there trying or taking chances? I only brought up the shop because Scott specifically laid out the reason people don't start businesses as taxes. That would be the least of the reasons I'd have not to start one. And I don't work at Wendy's because while that's great to do when you're single, (and I mean this QUITE literally) it would cost more in after school care for my son than I would make working there. Not to mention the fact that I have to be to the center to pick him up by 6 or I'm paying his child care by the minute. I worked 3 jobs during college too. Big deal. I had no kids, I could work whenever I wanted. Worked full time after too for several years and right now I'm quite occupied with looking for work and don't really appreciate the insinuation that I'd have a job if I only tried. Survival has called. Employers have not. Remember that little statistic I quoted earlier 18K jobs, 300K applicants (and a sinking print newspaper business)...you do the math.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Is it possible that Ziggy is unemployed today because somebody out there decided not to take a shot and invest in a business because there's no point if people like Harlan are allowed to confiscate so much of what they earn?

I think its more than possible, and that well intentioned people who think they're solving problems by giving more to the poor by further taxing success are really just screwing themselves.

I think you misunderstand me, Mr. Campbell. There are aspects to me that people of all political persuasions will find repulsive. I am a bleeding heart, but also very pro-business, a free-trader, happy to have corporate interests at the table. In fact if I were Czar I would eliminate all business and corporate taxes.

As Czar, I would set a standard deduction of $20K, and everybody would pay a flat tax rate for income above that. No social security tax, all income treated identically, no deductions for ANYTHING. I also would have a National Sales Tax and some tarriffs on imports, but no other local tax, user fee would be permited in my kingdom.

Now, you would be pissed because, as a higher income person, you would likely be paying more than in our current regressive system. But I would order your execution with great pleasure, and I expect most wealthy people would come to see a flat tax as not so onerous.

[MJZiggy]

I would love to start a business, a little yarn shop in the antique district,..........

Hell, I'd love to start a little yarn shop in the antique district too. It sounds like a blast. But I slave away at my job because I have to earn a living - not because its my favorite thing to do in life. I mean no disrespect here, but that sounds more like a lifestyle choice than a business plan. I've read enough from you over the years to be supremely confident that you are a formidable economic entity. I certainly would not bet against you.

It sounds like a blast to you, that's fine. Maybe for you it could be viewed that way, but do you know the difference between how an angora will knit up as opposed to a silk mohair blend? If a customer walks in your door with yarn they purchased from you and is having a problem working entrelac for the first time, will you be able to help? I mentioned a yarn shop because I've been crocheting for more than 20 years and have taken up knitting a couple years ago. I will know what to tell a client who wants to make a felted piece and wishes to buy a load of superwool to make it--and how to felt the piece if they don't have a top loading washer. I can explain how to wrap a butterfly for intarsia knitting. The antique district I mentioned, is in my mind because it's the district in the part of town where they can afford $180 a pound for a hand dyed, hand spun yarn. It's not a quaint little lifestyle bit I'm discussing. I know what the hell I'm talking about. (maybe take a look at the website at the bottom of this post before messing with ZigKnit--the background of the company already exists, I just can't do anything with it right now, but get me the right opportunity...)

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But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

[MJZiggy]

But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

Because he has the means and without a solid tax base, the government collapses. Do you think a billionaire is gonna miss 100 million more than the average joe will miss his $2,200?

[Partial]

But why should earning 1 billion pay say 10% or slightly less than 100,000,000 after the 20k deduction when your average family earns 42k and gets taxed on 22k, or 2,200.

Does the billionare use the roads, the schools, or the social programs any more than the average joe? No. So why should he have to pay for them?!?

Because he has the means and without a solid tax base, the government collapses. Do you think a billionaire is gonna miss 100 million more than the average joe will miss his $2,200?

Yes, I do think he'll miss 100,000,000. I think everyone would.

Why is it that those who are successful are always asked to foot the bill for societies shortcomings?

Here's a thought that might blow your mind:

What if all those bums who earn tax free dollars and all those illegal immigrants who earn tax free dollars get taxed via Fair Tax? It may not be a huge amount you get from them but every little bit helps.

Our tax forms are complicated. The CIA cites the literacy rate of American adults at 99% but that is believed to be a percentage or two too high. Figuring there are ~191 million americans, that means there are as many as 5.73 million americans who cannot read. Do you think these people are paying any taxes?!? No, I do not. Do I think a good majority of these people are capable of doing shady, under the table work? Yes, I do.

This might blow your mind too:

Don't you think that the said person being taxed 100,000,000 could do a lot more with that money being provided to private entity instead of going through with the suffocatingly inefficient government? I would rather that money be put to good use like the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation instead of being spent on all the bureaucrats working for the government.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Why is it that those who are successful are always asked to foot the bill for societies shortcomings?

What in hell are you talking about? The wealthy are paying a far lower percentage of their income on taxes than working people, no honest person can dispute this.

The government doesn't knock on rich people's doors when it gets in trouble, it borrows.

Again, your opinions are bases on theories, dogma, not rooted in any reality.