Fitna: Controversial Film On Islam

[Deputy Nutz]

I am buying less and less of the mild manner peaceful and loving Muslims.

We are coddling muslims in this country alone. Allowing them the right to prayer in schools and public sanctuaries, I mean while other religious activity is being stamped out, but yet the right of muslims to carry on their religious beliefs are being protected.

Yep, there are about 5 million Muslims living in this country. And yet the greatest domestic terrorist attack in the history of this country was by a white Christian male who had served in our military. So maybe judging people by stereotypes isn't such a great idea.

Whats your point? there are 180 million Caucasians in this country, I assume just by the percentages a white person would commit the largest "Domestic" assault on this country. five million, I will take 180 million over 5 million any day.

Anyways I was a bit fired up about what I saw and what I read, when in reality I should probably rethink some of the things I said. I rarely post off the cuff like that.

[Jimx29]

Islam has surpassed Roman Catholicism as the world's largest religion, the Vatican newspaper said Sunday.


*edit added*

Also, check out the 1 hour 17 minute video "Obsession" posted here in 10 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=FE5A96CBDC2582F7

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: Fitna: Controversial Film On Islam

See for yourself what the fuss is about. It was released on Thursday and pulled on Friday due to death threats against England's ISP employees.

It seems pretty straightforward to me. Facts are stubborn things.

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TxP-SOA0_0

Part 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkVmBx4dyG0

The Evolution of Religious Bigotry
Courage without consequence.
By Jonah Goldberg

I just watched Fitna, a 17-minute film by Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders.

Released on the Internet last week, Fitna juxtaposes verses from the Koran with images from the world of jihad. Heads cut off, bodies blown apart, gays executed, toddlers taught to denounce Jews as “apes and pigs,” protesters holding up signs reading “God Bless Hitler” and “Freedom go to Hell” — these are among the powerful images from Fitna, Arabic for “strife” or “ordeal.”

Predictably, various Muslim governments have condemned the film. Half the Jordanian parliament voted to sever ties with the Netherlands. Egypt’s grand imam threatened “severe” consequences if the Dutch didn’t ban the film.

Meanwhile, European and U.N. leaders are going through the usual theatrical hand-wringing, heaping anger on Wilders for sowing “hatred.”

Me? I keep thinking about Jesus fish.

During a 1991 visit to Istanbul, a buddy and I found ourselves in a small restaurant, drinking, dancing, and singing with a bunch of middle-class Turkish businessmen, mostly shop owners. It was a hilariously joyful evening, even though they spoke little English and we spoke considerably less Turkish.

At the end of the night, after imbibing unquantifiable quantities of raki, an ouzo-like Turkish liqueur, one of the men gave me a worn-out business card. On the back, he’d scribbled an image. It was little more than a curlicue, but he seemed intent on showing it to me (and nobody else). It was, I realized, a Jesus fish.

It was an eye-opening moment for me, though obviously trivial compared with the experiences of others. Here in this cosmopolitan and self-styled European city, this fellow felt the need to surreptitiously clue me in that he was a Christian just like me (or so he thought).

Traditionally, the fish pictogram conjures the miracle of the loaves and fishes as well as the Greek word IXΘΥΣ, which means fish and also is an acronym for “Jesus Christ, God’s Son, Savior.” Christians persecuted by the Romans used to draw the Jesus fish in the dirt as a way to tip off fellow Christians that they weren’t alone.

In America, these fish appear mostly on cars. Recently, however, it seems Jesus fish have become outnumbered by Darwin fish. No doubt you’ve seen these, too. The fish is “updated” with little feet on the bottom, and “IXΘΥΣ” or “Jesus” is replaced with either “Darwin” or “Evolve.”

I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there’s the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers.

The hypocrisy is even more glaring. Darwin fish are often stuck next to bumper stickers promoting tolerance or admonishing that “hate is not a family value.” But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims.

As Christopher Caldwell once observed in the Weekly Standard, Darwin fish flout the agreed-on etiquette of identity politics. “Namely: It’s acceptable to assert identity and abhorrent to attack it. A plaque with ‘Shalom’ written inside a Star of David would hardly attract notice; a plaque with ‘Usury’ written inside the same symbol would be an outrage.”

But it’s the false bravado of the Darwin fish that grates the most. Like so much other Christian-baiting in American popular culture, sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap, to show courage without consequence.

Whatever the faults of Fitna, it ain’t no Darwin fish.

Wilders’ film could easily get him killed. It picks up the work of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in 2004 by a jihadi for criticizing Islam.

Fitna is provocative, but it has good reason to provoke. A cancer of violence, bigotry, and cruelty is metastasizing within the Islamic world.

It’s fine for Muslim moderates to say they aren’t part of the cancer; and that some have, in response to the film, is a positive sign. But more often, diagnosing or even observing this cancer — in film, book or cartoon — is dubbed “intolerant,” while calls for violence, censorship, and even murder are treated as understandable, if regrettable, expressions of anger.

It’s not that secular progressives support Muslim religious fanatics, it’s that they reserve their passion and scorn for religious Christians who are neither fanatical nor violent.

The Darwin fish ostensibly symbolizes the superiority of progressive-minded science over backward-looking faith. I think this is a false juxtaposition, but I would have a lot more respect for the folks who believe it if they aimed their brave contempt for religion at those who might behead them for it.

— Jonah Goldberg is the author of Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left from Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning.

[Harlan Huckleby]

[Harlan Huckleby]

Fitna is provocative, but it has good reason to provoke. A cancer of violence, bigotry, and cruelty is metastasizing within the Islamic world.

The film provokes by stigmatizing Islam as being inherently evil.

One could also takes quotes from the bible, and juxtapose christians intimidating people at abortion clinics, or bombing federal buildings in Oklahoma.

I find it ironic that Goldberg turns a blind-eye to a film that paints muslims with a broad brush within a column that complains about the stereotyping of christians. Bizarre.

The Darwin fish ostensibly symbolizes the superiority of progressive-minded science over backward-looking faith.

Perhaps. But aren't Jesus fish a display of moral superiority and rightousness?

The blindness of people is unbelievable. Its the Hatfields and McCoys all over the place.

[Kiwon]

One could also takes quotes from the bible, and juxtapose christians intimidating people at abortion clinics, or bombing federal buildings in Oklahoma.

HH, go ahead and make the movie. Sounds like you're off to a good start.

Which sayings by Jesus are you going to use? Now don't let the fact that Jesus never picked up a sword or advocated violence like Muhammad did stop you. Jesus never actually killed people (He kept them from being killed and raised the dead), but maybe you could say that He metaphorically killed them (you know, death to self and being spiritually born again).

Okay, you've got two images so far - people publicly demonstrating to stop the death of children and a domestic terrorist act by a white supremacist as a protest against the government.

Hmmmm.....it's a little murky here, these images just don't have the same power as kidnapping and beheading people (the beheading part is done in the abortion clinic) and people choosing to jump from a 100-story building to avoid burning to death.

I don't mean to criticize but you've got to use better examples if you want your moral equivilance argument to succeed. It doesn't have to be perfect, I mean, liberals or "progressives" don't care that much about facts, but, you know, the average person has some common sense. He's not as easily swayed by specious analogies that feed one's biases.

But, whatever you do, don't stop. Just keep thinking out loud. You'll come up with those examples that prove your premise. I know it’s not easy. The facts just aren't there, but keep at it.

[swede]

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/CalThomas/2008/04/01/conversion_a_one-way_street

Although the differences between wahabbi Muslims and Christians are fuzzy or unimportant and trite to some posters, one difference of some significance is that converts from Christianity to the Muslim faith do not require bodyguards.

[Harlan Huckleby]

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/C...one-way_street

OH MY GOD. What a right wing nut. "And why is CAIR encouraging other Muslims to run for office in state, local and federal races? Does CAIR have an agenda that could lead to triumphs of a different sort? "

The Muslims are going to destroy us from within!!!

Although the differences between wahabbi Muslims and Christians are fuzzy or unimportant and trite to some posters,

You're comparing Christianity in general with the most fundamentalist Muslim movement in the world. (One that is relatively small, compared to all the muslims in the world.) Excuse me, you aren't making the comparison, "some posters" are.

one difference of some significance is that converts from Christianity to the Muslim faith do not require bodyguards.

I don't beleive this characterization, at least as applied to most muslims in our country.

Christianity has an unbelievably bloody record. Just look at European history and weep.

I can read a newspaper. It does seem like the Muslim world is going through a giant convulsion. They have many more extremists.

Violence is not inherent to Islam, in fact I beleive this is a 20th century outburst.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Which sayings by Jesus are you going to use?

I don't know about Jesus, but do I get to use the old testament?

I don't mean to criticize but you've got to use better examples if you want your moral equivilance argument to succeed.

I agree that there are many more extreme muslims running around the planet at this particular juncture in history. Two or three hundred years ago, picture was quite the opposite. The violence our generation sees has NOTHING to do with religious teaching or philosophy. Its a political/cultural conflict within the Muslim world.

The scriptures of Christianity, Judaism, Islam are GREATLY overlapped. If somebody wants scriptural justification for violence, people in all three religions can and have found it.

[Kiwon]

I don't know about Jesus

That's pretty obvious.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I know enough about his teachings to say you give him a bad name with your hate mongering. With friends like you, Jesus don't need no enemies.

[mmmdk]

I am buying less and less of the mild manner peaceful and loving Muslims.

We are coddling muslims in this country alone. Allowing them the right to prayer in schools and public sanctuaries, I mean while other religious activity is being stamped out, but yet the right of muslims to carry on their religous beliefs are being protected.

Yep, there are about 5 million Muslims living in this country. And yet the greatest domestic terrorist attack in the history of this country was by a white Christian male who had served in our military. So maybe judging people by stereotypes isn't such a great idea.

I'm with Joe yet radical religious people are a menace to the world.

[Deputy Nutz]

I am buying less and less of the mild manner peaceful and loving Muslims.

We are coddling muslims in this country alone. Allowing them the right to prayer in schools and public sanctuaries, I mean while other religious activity is being stamped out, but yet the right of muslims to carry on their religious beliefs are being protected.

Yep, there are about 5 million Muslims living in this country. And yet the greatest domestic terrorist attack in the history of this country was by a white Christian male who had served in our military. So maybe judging people by stereotypes isn't such a great idea.

I'm with Joe yet radical religious people are a menace to the world.

I guess I will be more tolerating when I hear more muslims denouncing the actions of the muslim extremists, instead they attack this film, and although it is screwed to view muslims in a very dim light in my opinion they don't do enough to condemn the abuse of civilization by these muslim extremist. If it wasn't for muslims decapitating people held hostage, and their acts of terrorism this film would have probably never been made.

[texaspackerbacker]

I see nothing racist or wrong in any way to have or display bias against Muslims. We are in the early stages of a clash of civilizations with them that if lost, would result in a new dark age of tyranny and depravity for the world--including America if they got their way.

While obviously, all Muslims are not bad, there should be a presumption that they are that must be overcome.

A poll was taken in Palestine the other day asking whether people approved of murder of Israeli civilians. An incredible 84% said yes. That's the kind of people we are dealing with. I wonder what the percentage would be if a similar poll was taken of Muslims in America. Not as high, undoubtedly, but near or over 50% wouldn't surprise me.

One only needs to remember the large scale favorable demonstrations in Muslim cities after 9/11 to realize the despicable mindset we are up against. This is clearly a good versus evil world, and they are the primary evil that we, as good, are facing.

[Freak Out]

A poll was taken in Palestine the other day asking whether people approved of murder of Israeli civilians. An incredible 84% said yes. That's the kind of people we are dealing with.

What was it Jesus said (I think about a Romans pack?)?
Walk a mile in another's shoes?