Fitna: Controversial Film On Islam

[Harlan Huckleby]

It's obvious that many Muslims are violent, far too many Muslims look the other way, and violent Muslims use scripture to justify their actions.

My point is that it is not evidence of their religion being inherently violent or inferior. You have to look historically to see that this is a problem of our era.

Very foolish to demonize Muslims for being Muslims. Just plays into hands of extremists.

[texaspackerbacker]

While their religion may not be "inherently evil", the deformed and barbaric philosophy and agenda of the followers of that religion--I would argue the large majority of the adherents of that religion--have indeed, evolved into something very evil.

Over at the JSOnline forums, we had a Muslim poster some of you may remember--TH87 (I wonder which if any forum he ended up at). The guy was articulate and decent, and even though I disagreed with him on most things, I had great respect for him. His position was that the Koran and basically the entire Muslim religion had been co-opted and taken over by the radical clerics who promote the unspeakable barbarism and evil which nowadays characterizes Islam. When I asked him how he explained the apparent approval of so many Muslims--probably a huge majority--for the horrors perpetrated by a comparative few, he stated that intimidation had a lot to do with it--the decent Muslims being afraid to speak out against what he saw as relatively few committing and promoting acts of terror, etc. I don't really buy that idea, but I do hold it out as having some degree of credibility--mainly because the person stating it had credibility.

Whether they have majority support, or merely a majority intimidated into a pretense of support, the Islamic fundamentalists CLEARLY have an agenda of inflicting the horrors of Sharia Law on as big a segment of the world's population as possible. And if that agenda succeeds, all that is good and decent and now considered civilized goes down the toilet. Tyranny, poverty, depravity in many different forms would become the way of life--as they already have--in any country or area dominated by Islam.

THAT is why I contend that we are in a clash of civilizations with Islam that if we do not win, could damage and devolve common decency and enjoyment of life in the world to a thing of the past.

[Harlan Huckleby]

We can't win a clash of civilizations with Islam. Are we gonna occupy Indonesia and Pakistan? Ultimately, Islam has to cure itself. They are going through their own internal conflict that we can't solve. We can only poke at it from the margins.

I urge you to refuse to have a clash of civilizations. And that means keeping a cool head and not demonizing all Muslims.

Religion really has very little to do with the problem.

[Scott Campbell]

We can't win a clash of civilizations with Islam. Are we gonna occupy Indonesia and Pakistan? Ultimately, Islam has to cure itself. They are going through their own internal conflict that we can't solve. We can only poke at it from the margins.

I urge you to refuse to have a clash of civilizations. And that means keeping a cool head and not demonizing all Muslims.

Religion really has very little to do with the problem.

Well, you sound a little like the French prior to Hitler's Blitzkrieg. Sometimes waiting is not much of a strategy.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I'm not advocating inaction. Caution, realism. Like in Pakistan, we have to let them deal with the problem, as frustrating and slow as that may be.

And especially we have to be careful about the rhetoric. The extremists goal is to get us to define the conflict as a battle of civilizations or religous war. I'm beginning to suspect Kiwon & Tex are terrorist agents, a sleeper cell.

[texaspackerbacker]

I'm not advoocating a comprehensive preemptive war against Islam when I talk about "clash of civilizations". Certainly, we shouldn't provoke the LEAST VIRULENT Muslim country with the biggest population of Muslims in the world, Indonesia. Also, we should do all we can to cultivate the Islamic countries who are fairly loyal to us.

When I talk about "clash of civilizations", however, I mean more on a micro- level. We are a Christian country--a country of Judeo-Christian values and heritage. Instead of de-emphasizing that and getting all pc--politically correct, we need to highlight what WE ARE in comparison to what THEY ARE--what WE stand for--freedom, compassion, humanity, prosperity, and enjoyment of life, compared to what THEY stand for--tyranny, hate, lack of compassion and humanity, poverty, and austerity.

Too many people in this country, and probably a bigger percentage than that in Christian Europe think of Islam and Muslims as morally equivalent and merely some kind of a good neighbor in the world--instead of a vile force that has a goal of inflicting its horrendous Sharia Law on everybody.

And as for the idea that we can't win a "clash of civilizations" in a military sense: Picture a massive Muslim uprising--all 600-700 million or so of them--a jihad to inflict Islam on as much of the world as possible. Then picture a Christian force--aside from America--which could nuke 'em and win the war by ourselves if need be, aside from the Eurowimps who probably would roll over and cave to the Muslims, aside from China and Japan, which probably wouldn't have a dog in this fight, and what do you have? Well, you have about a half billion machismo Christian warriors from Latin America, backed by nearly a billion hard charging Hindus from India who would like nothing better than stomping Muslims. And top it off with over 200 million Russians paranoid about all those Muslims on their southern border. I kinda like those odds. Of course it wouldn't happen unless most of those Muslims were ready to meet their 72 virgins, because that would inevitably be the result.

[Tarlam!]

I have a Muslim buddy who reminded me of the Spanish Inquisition days when we discussed the radical fundamentalists in his religion.

He draws a comparison based on the age of either religion at the time of both fundamentalist periods.

Islam is what, 600 years younger than Christianity?

We're gonna have to wait awhile for them to catch up, I guess.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ya, Spanish Inquisition came about the same time Catholics and Protestants were taking turns torturing each other in England.

I think the Muslim world in the Mideast (where the problem lies) is reacting to rapid changes in rest of world that threaten their way of life. Especially things like role of women, materialism.

Somebody mentioned the Wahabis (sp), the extreme fundamentalist sect coming out of Saudi ARabia and spreading to Pakistan. I think that sect started around 1890. Maybe in reaction to Industrial Revolution? It spread widely around 1960s. Point is the craziness is relatively new, 20th century, not from traditional religous teachings.

[Kiwon]

We can't win a clash of civilizations with Islam. Are we gonna occupy Indonesia and Pakistan? Ultimately, Islam has to cure itself. They are going through their own internal conflict that we can't solve. We can only poke at it from the margins.

That's right. Things won't really cool down until moderate Muslims confront and control their own radicals.

I urge you to refuse to have a clash of civilizations. And that means keeping a cool head and not demonizing all Muslims.

Another valid point. Maybe HH took his meds today. He's actually making sense.

Religion really has very little to do with the problem.

That's one of the stupidest statements ever uttered.

Yhello....40 virgins...instant trip to Paradise....."Allah akbar" as people are beheaded....

Oh yeah, that has more to do with potato chips than religion.

HH, have you ever thought about visiting a nearby nursing home and sharing your unique perspective with the residents there? There are a lot of lonely people who would appreciate just having someone to talk with. You don't have to make sense, just smile and be friendly. You're a good man for the job.

[Harlan Huckleby]

When the catholics and protestants fought for hundreds of years in England or Ireland, was it about religion? No. People were divided along religous lines, but it was about power. If the groups were divided by whether they liked chocolate or vanilla ice cream, or had brown or blue eyes, things would have played-out just the same.

The conflict with Japan in WW2 was not over the japanese people's devotion to their emperor. It played a role, but was not the cause.

The conflict with Islam is not about Islam or Christianity. We're not trying to convert them to our religion or vice versa. There sometimes is tension involving missionaries, but that is rare. Islam is being used as a tool by those who have other interests in fomenting a war. I think the fundamentalists want to seize power in countries with Islamic populations, and shield outside cultural influences.

[texaspackerbacker]

Is it only 40 virgins? I thought 72. Maybe the Islamic world is running out.

Yeah, I've heard those comebacks from moral equivalence types too--the Spanish Inquisition, the era after the Protestant Reformation, etc., but that's a pretty lame response in the here and now.

The whole world has progressed a lot in the realm of compassion and civilization since then--the whole world, that is, except for Islam. I would like to say "radical Islam" or 'Islamic fundamentalists" or something to marginalize the bad guys, but the fact is, a pretty huge majority of Muslims support those pushing barbarism and genocide. And that is something that is fairly difficult for apologists of Muslims to justify or run and hide from.

Good points about early power struggles in Christian nations as well as the Japs in WWII, Harlan. And you are right about 75% in your last paragraph too. We aren't trying to convert them (perhaps we should be). And yes, the most virulent Muslims ARE trying to consolidate power and keep forces of modernity and civilization out of Muslim countries. However, they clearly also are trying to spread the horrors of Sharia Law to a lot of non-Muslim areas too--with an ultimate goal of an Islamic world.

[Harlan Huckleby]

but the fact is, a pretty huge majority of Muslims support those pushing barbarism and genocide.

Is that a fact? Amazing.

al-Quida has lost support in Iraq. And the people of Pakistan are starting to turn on extremists for their recent excesses.

I believe a lot of Muslims have resentment against the West and U.S. in particular. Most muslim people expressed dismay at 911, some cheered. But when they get a whiff of Sharia Law , the vast majority want nothing to do with fundamentalism.

Ummm, the most pro-U.S. muslim country in the world is Iran. For at least two reasons:
1) We aren't there.
2) The oppressive Mullahs are.

However, they clearly also are trying to spread the horrors of Sharia Law to a lot of non-Muslim areas too--with an ultimate goal of an Islamic world.

This is not clear. I doubt it. Of course both Islam and Christianity are both into recruiting the Others.

[texaspackerbacker]

I have to admit, Harlan, I don't have any impressive recent statistics to support my contention that most Muslims support the bad guys (other than that recent 84% figure among Palestinians regarding murder of Israeli civilians). I do think that picture of Muslims all over the world, including here in America is a lot more believable than the thing you said about how more Muslims like America in Iran than anyplace else. Where did you get that idea, anyway?

And as for Muslims trying to inflict Sharia Law on non-Muslim areas, you might want to ask the French, the British, the Danes, the Spanish, the Filipinos, the formerly 50% Christian Lebanese, the Christians of Darfur, black Christians in many countries of western Africa, even a couple of suburbs of Detroit.

[Kiwon]

Is it only 40 virgins? I thought 72. Maybe the Islamic world is running out.

There's a Recession on. Times are tough all over.

Maybe it's only 40 if the suicide bomber (martyr) dies but the infidel is only wounded. He's get half credit for trying.

You get the full monty if you kill the infidel and send him to Hell.

Nice little enticement to the disenfranchised that are taught to hate from their earliest days.

Of course, this has very little to do with religion. Paper clips are where the real danger lies.

[Kiwon]

And as for Muslims trying to inflict Sharia Law on non-Muslim areas, you might want to ask the French, the British, the Danes, the Spanish, the Filipinos, the formerly 50% Christian Lebanese, the Christians of Darfur, black Christians in many countries of western Africa, even a couple of suburbs of Detroit.

Hey, let's ask her for an opinion. Oops, too late.



Ditto for the Catholic priests in Iraq.

But that doesn't matter to HH because in 1218 a knight from Wales went postal (before there was a postal service) on some visiting Muslim traders. It's justifiable payback now. You know, a cosmic ying-yang.