What to do about the gays?

[HarveyWallbangers]

Well, i would point to you and especially Tex who like to claim this country is a Christian one..and therefore as Christians Jesus demanded you assist the poor.

Stupid argument. As a Christian, I give money, but I decide where the money is going to. Besides tithing, I usually choose those organizations that have proven to be the most efficient with the money I give. The government isn't the most efficient. In fact, wanting the government to stay out of the entitlement business (except for those that truly can't help themselves) isn't a Christian position. Many Christians would probably be for this. I think it's a matter of keeping the government small (which was the original intent when this country was created) and letting people have the freedom to choose what they want to do with their money. As a Christian I can still choose to give away a good portion of my money (and I do), but it's not forced on others who may feel differently.

[bobblehead]

I'd like to take this moment to pimp the smile train. It is a charity that goes to kids in 3rd world nations for surgery to fix cleft mouths(lips). the overhead is minimal and most money goes right to these kids, and it is really a cheap way to change a childs outlook on life....even better than giving a welfare mom a check.

[GrnBay007]

And I agree about going after the idiots who misappropriate funds. I think most welfare/assistance programs are something we can afford, problem is once gov't gets involved waste/inefficiency ect gets started.

This isn't unusual at all in our country and the business world...too often the policies are written at the top and too little input is allowed from the people that are hands on and have a better idea what the hell is going on!! Happens ALL the time at the State level.

[HarveyWallbangers]

the only problem I have with gay marriage is that it leaves me feeling like Tevya from Fiddler on the Roof; things are moving a little too fast for this old man.

I agree. I would like to allow people to hang-on to their religious/cultural ideas about "marriage." If we would limit the government to JUST performing civil unions, that could happen. Let churches do marriages. I think everybody would be happy. If the Unitarians want to marry gays, fine. Maybe someday the Lutherans will marry gays too, if and when they are ready.

Here's how my Conservative mind works, Harlan. Although I believe homosexuality is a sin, I know that not everyone feels the way I do (or necessarily should). I also go by the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mantra. I don't look to ostracize homosexuals. Now, I think marriage is a religious ceremony and should remain a union between one man and one woman, but I think there can be a good compromise (civil unions). Otherwise, I generally do not care what the hell somebody wants to do in their own house (only if it directly affects me). Nutz said that he and his wife don't have a religious marriage. To me, this should fall under a civil union also. It's not so much the homosexuality that clouds things for me as it is the fact that marriage, in this country, has been a sacred religious institution (between one man and one woman). I know you think this is antiquated, but I don't understand the need to change it. Again, for me, civil unions seem to be a good compromise.

And no, I don't think having two unions (marriage unions and civil unions) ostracizes homosexuals--in case you were wondering.

Like Swede said, it's hard when you have friends that are gay. For me, it was even a couple of long-time friends who came out years later, but I have to stay true to myself and my beliefs.

[BallHawk]

Well-said, Harv. Spot on.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The recent constitutional amendment in WI banned both marriage and civil unions.

Somebody from Oshkosh recently challenged the amendment in court, saying that it unfairly forced voters to cast one vote on two different issues. I think the discussions that we have had shows pretty clearly that many people think differently about marriage & civil unions.

The guy's challenge lost. But it is being appealed to a higher court.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Here is the story: http://www.madison.com/tct/news/288960

I think the WI constitutional referendum banning both gay marriage and civil unions was bogus. The issues should be considered separately.

[bobblehead]

Incidentally I think a lot of democrats voted against gay marriage....does that make them conservative?

[PackFan#1]

Hey bobblehead, why don't you quit your college-trained job today and go work at Wal-mart for the minimum. If you can support your family on that, then I'm all for obliterating social welfare.

If you know if you work hard at walmart, in 4 years they'll promote you from associate to assistant manager of your department and give you a $2 wage increase.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Incidentally I think a lot of democrats voted against gay marriage....does that make them conservative?

of course it is a point in the conservative column for them.

You seem to think that people are all one thing or another. Its no wonder that the thought of a majority of the South switching from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party has thrown you into such a tizzy. No way for you to think about it in your system of hard boxes.

[bobblehead]

Hey bobblehead, why don't you quit your college-trained job today and go work at Wal-mart for the minimum. If you can support your family on that, then I'm all for obliterating social welfare.

If you know if you work hard at walmart, in 4 years they'll promote you from associate to assistant manager of your department and give you a $2 wage increase.

I can support my family on that, but I would have to change my lifestyle. The reason I don't is because I have worked hard and made sacrifices to have the job and situation I have now.

As usual, you offer no kind of arguement, simply come in, take a pot shot and think you scored points.

I actually have no clue what your point was other than to try and point out something about me that I'm not entirely sure what it is.

PS...
Wal-Mart pays an average hourly wage of $8.23 an hour, according to independent expert statistical analysis, which falls below basic living wage standards and even below poverty lines.
Wal-Mart claims an hourly wage of $9.68 an hour is its national average, though that still equals poverty levels for workers. Since “full time” at Wal-Mart is 34 hours a week according to company policy, full-time workers make a mere $17,114.24 a year—below the federal poverty level for a family of four. (incidentally what are people making 17k a year doing having 2 kids? responsibility PLEASE)

So you can't even frame your arguement honestly.

[bobblehead]

Incidentally I think a lot of democrats voted against gay marriage....does that make them conservative?

of course it is a point in the conservative column for them.

You seem to think that people are all one thing or another. Its no wonder that the thought of a majority of the South switching from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party has thrown you into such a tizzy. No way for you to think about it in your system of hard boxes.

OK, bad example on my part, I was still irked by the other thread. Against Gay marriage is indeed a socially conservative stance. Rascism still isn't.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Hey bobblehead, why don't you quit your college-trained job today and go work at Wal-mart for the minimum. If you can support your family on that, then I'm all for obliterating social welfare.

If you know if you work hard at walmart, in 4 years they'll promote you from associate to assistant manager of your department and give you a $2 wage increase.

I can support my family on that, but I would have to change my lifestyle. The reason I don't is because I have worked hard and made sacrifices to have the job and situation I have now.

As usual, you offer no kind of arguement, simply come in, take a pot shot and think you scored points.

I actually have no clue what your point was other than to try and point out something about me that I'm not entirely sure what it is.

PS...
Wal-Mart pays an average hourly wage of $8.23 an hour, according to independent expert statistical analysis, which falls below basic living wage standards and even below poverty lines.
Wal-Mart claims an hourly wage of $9.68 an hour is its national average, though that still equals poverty levels for workers. Since “full time” at Wal-Mart is 34 hours a week according to company policy, full-time workers make a mere $17,114.24 a year—below the federal poverty level for a family of four. (incidentally what are people making 17k a year doing having 2 kids? responsibility PLEASE)

So you can't even frame your arguement honestly.

Bobble,

it is this type of thinking that makes me sick.

Responsibility? Really? So, only those who are going to be achievers should mate?

Having 2 kids isn't being irresponsible.

BTW, your argument is self defeating. Our county needs retail workers, ditch diggers, etc. If those people don't have children..who is going to do the work?

[bobblehead]

Hey bobblehead, why don't you quit your college-trained job today and go work at Wal-mart for the minimum. If you can support your family on that, then I'm all for obliterating social welfare.

If you know if you work hard at walmart, in 4 years they'll promote you from associate to assistant manager of your department and give you a $2 wage increase.

I can support my family on that, but I would have to change my lifestyle. The reason I don't is because I have worked hard and made sacrifices to have the job and situation I have now.

As usual, you offer no kind of arguement, simply come in, take a pot shot and think you scored points.

I actually have no clue what your point was other than to try and point out something about me that I'm not entirely sure what it is.

PS...
Wal-Mart pays an average hourly wage of $8.23 an hour, according to independent expert statistical analysis, which falls below basic living wage standards and even below poverty lines.
Wal-Mart claims an hourly wage of $9.68 an hour is its national average, though that still equals poverty levels for workers. Since “full time” at Wal-Mart is 34 hours a week according to company policy, full-time workers make a mere $17,114.24 a year—below the federal poverty level for a family of four. (incidentally what are people making 17k a year doing having 2 kids? responsibility PLEASE)

So you can't even frame your arguement honestly.

Bobble,

it is this type of thinking that makes me sick.

Responsibility? Really? So, only those who are going to be achievers should mate?

Having 2 kids isn't being irresponsible.

BTW, your argument is self defeating. Our county needs retail workers, ditch diggers, etc. If those people don't have children..who is going to do the work?

No, its not self defeating, I'm saying that you shouldn't have children til you are ready, financially and emotionally. If you knock up your girlfriend in highschool, it is irresponsible, and if you have kids you can't support, it also is irresponsible.

I never said that only achievers should mate, I am saying don't have kids you can't pay for. If someone is content to be a retail worker/ditch digger whatever, its fine with me, I got no truck with that. Who is gonna do that work next is your question?? Well, whoevers kids are ok with doing it for a living, or those that are on their way up. I would think in most cases people who have hard lives would hope their kids WON'T follow the same path.

I would submit that if a family of 4 has both spouses working at walmart making the low end arguement average (34K) could indeed get by. Would they have 52" plasmas, probably not, but its not like they would starve. Do i think they are irresponsible to have 2 kids, only if they aren't willing make the sacrifices necessary to pay for them.

You say that this thinking makes you sick, well without being too emotional about it, the thinking that anyone should have as many kids as they want and if they can't pay for it we will merely tax the produces and hand it over makes me sick. People who look at my situation and declare me lucky without know the sacrifices I made along the way make me sick. As a very wealthy person I met once said "I'm just a guy who worked 20 hours a day and got lucky"

[Harlan Huckleby]

OK, bad example on my part, I was still irked by the other thread. Against Gay marriage is indeed a socially conservative stance. Rascism still isn't.

I agree. But people of a conservative mindset were more likely to react against the Civil Rights Movement, since by definition they are tempermentally resistent to radical change.

I don't think racists are more likely to be conservative now that things have become more settled.