Corner turned in Iraq?

[oregonpackfan]

If Blackwater and other contractors violate the rules of engagement or other American policies, they will be dealt with by our side.

The fact is that Erik Prince's Blackwater has had numerous infractions against Iraqi civilians during this war. Because of the immunity Blackwater already receives, none of their employees has been charged or convicted of any crime.

I suggest people read Jeremy Scahill's Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army.

Here is a website containing excerpts from his book:

http://www.blackwaterbook.com/

[Harlan Huckleby]

I suggest people read Jeremy Scahill's Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army.

Why is it that people who oppose the war in Iraq are also the ones concerned about private contractors?

There may be legitimate criticism about weak oversite and accountability of armed contractors. I would like to hear that argument from a person who does not have an agenda. Why aren't Joe Biden and other intelligent, responsible war-skeptics going nuts? But a little perspective: most contractors are there in support functions: driving trucks, cutting hair, caring for wounded people. I don't know, but suspect, that the "Mercenary Army" book is shallow propaganda.

What I know for certain is that the demonization of an entire class of people who are just trying to do their job in a dangerous environent is disgraceful.

[texaspackerbacker]

Oregon, are you aware that "immunity" in this case simply means that they are not subject to IRAQI laws and government? They still are just as subject to OUR laws and rules of engagement as any other American.

I HOPE you wouldn't want it any other way.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The Iraqi Justice System that we are supposed to place our citizens under.

[oregonpackfan]

Oregon, are you aware that "immunity" in this case simply means that they are not subject to IRAQI laws and government? They still are just as subject to OUR laws and rules of engagement as any other American.

Texas,

The immunity that was granted to the private contractors meant that they are not subject to any type of prosecution be it in reference Iraqi, American, or International laws. In other words, they have a free pass to do whatever they want.

While the majority of the private contractors have conducted themselves in an ethical, professional manner, there is a disturbing large minority of contractors who have literally gotten away with murder.

[Freak Out]

I was under the impression that the only way Blackwater could be brought up on any charges was if State did a review of some incident involving their activity and deemed it negligent or criminal...as far as I know that has not been done to date. There have been plenty of lawsuits filed against Blackwater in American courts but that is a different matter entirely.

[oregonpackfan]

[quote="Harlan Huckleby"]

I suggest people read Jeremy Scahill's Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army.

Why is it that people who oppose the war in Iraq are also the ones concerned about private contractors?

Much of the concern about the hiring of private contractors is that most of them received no-bid contracts. In other words, the US government officials did not take expense or competancy of the companies into account in awarding the contracts.

What was the deciding factor in awarding of the contracts was their ties to the Republican Party. Most of the companies like Halliburton(Cheney was its former CEO), Blackwater, Bechtel, etc. have long been financial contributors and supporters of the Republican Party.

A number of military leaders oppose the extensive use of private contractors because they cannot be used as soldiers in case of a battle emergency. In the past, soldiers were trained as cooks, clerks, drivers, etc. In the event of a military need, those support personnel could be counted on to fight in a battle. The privately contracted clerks, drivers, etc. usually have little or no military training and cannot be used in a battlefield situation. They become a liability rather than an asset.

As far as protection of military and civilian leaders in the past, elite Marine and/or Army units were assigned to protect them. That costs taxpayers the standard rate of military pay for those soldiers. Some of the Blackwater mercenaries who are assigned to people like Rice, Petraus, etc. make up to $1,000 a day--all at the cost of the American taxpayer.

Even the private truck driver contractors earn up to $90,000 a year. Compare that cost with the soldier assigned as a truck driver who might make $15,000 a year.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Oregon, are you aware that "immunity" in this case simply means that they are not subject to IRAQI laws and government? They still are just as subject to OUR laws and rules of engagement as any other American.

I HOPE you wouldn't want it any other way.

Sorry, but you are wrong. They aren't subject to our laws or the Uniform Code of Conduct.

THere is no disputing this. It would be nice if you actually talked about things you had some clue about.

Bremer issued the order. One of the final acts of the CPA, Order 17 declared that foreign contractors within Iraq, including private military firms, would not be subject to any Iraqi laws.

Who authored 17...you guessed it..CPA official named Lawrence Peter, who oversaw the Iraqi Ministry of Interior. As soon as the CPA was dissolved, the Private Security Company Association of Iraq hired Peter to act as its liaison and lobbyist there.

Yep, no conflict of interest there.

Order 17 was a radical break with U.S. policy, such an order had never been promulgated before. Don't confuse it with a Status of Force Agreement like those negotiated with sovereign nations such as South Korea. Those agreements are subject to complex bargaining and mutual assurance. Nor are contractors subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice because, after all, they are not in the U.S. military. Nor has the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act of 2000 been brought to bear on contractors in Iraq.

THe contracts are funnelled thru the state dep't..so the MEJA doesn't apply.

Let's actually look at the facts. When a Blackwater employee gunned down the VP's bodyguard..prince said they couldn't incarcerate him because it was up to our justice dep't.

But Richard J. Griffin, head of the State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security, testified, "The area of laws available for prosecution is very murky."

End result..nothing.

P.S. Harlan, the reason you don't hear much from Dems (speaking of the past)..when they brought about Congress hearings..and prince testified..they had to appear non-partisan...despite Prince's/blackwater's deep Repub ties (oh...let's not forget the Amway DeVos's...prince's sis..who is also a ardent Repub supporter...but, who split from her fam by supporting Bush).

Perhaps you forgot or were unaware of the hearings. But, leave it to the Repubs to hang themselves. When Issa...tried to present them as just a normal campaign contributor he let the cat out of the bag when he asked about the 10K donation to the GREEN PARTY prince and his wife made. Hmm, Green Party..why would that happen? Could it be to divide Penn Dems and defeat Casey against ultra right wing/ultra christian Rick Santorum?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Even the private truck driver contractors earn up to $90,000 a year. Compare that cost with the soldier assigned as a truck driver who might make $15,000 a year.

The salary that a military person makes is just a small percentage of the cost to taxpayers, starting with a soldier's recruitment costs, enlistment bonus and training. Military people can retire with significant pensions after just 20 years of service, they cost the taxpapers for their entire lifespan. (I may have the years wrong, but its about right.)

The contractors are hired because they are far cheaper in the long run.

[Harlan Huckleby]

P.S. Harlan, the reason you don't hear much from Dems (speaking of the past)..when they brought about Congress hearings..and prince testified..they had to appear non-partisan...despite Prince's/blackwater's deep Repub ties (oh...let's not forget the Amway DeVos's...prince's sis..who is also a ardent Repub supporter...but, who split from her fam by supporting Bush).

I have to confess that the contractor issue bores my tits off. I really don't know enough about it. However, I am not playing favorites. I am no more interested in the contractors who work for the war effort than I am interested in the contractors who maintain our national parks, or the contractors who provide medical care to medicare patients.

If there is waste and corruption, go get um.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Even the private truck driver contractors earn up to $90,000 a year. Compare that cost with the soldier assigned as a truck driver who might make $15,000 a year.

The salary that a military person makes is just a small percentage of the cost to taxpayers, starting with a soldier's recruitment costs, enlistment bonus and training. Military people can retire with significant pensions after just 20 years of service, they cost the taxpapers for their entire lifespan. (I may have the years wrong, but its about right.)

The contractors are hired because they are far cheaper in the long run.

Harlan,

THere is no study that will back you up on that..not saying you are wrong, but there is no proof.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/contractors/ceff.html

What we do know is that private contractors often undermine our own forces and goals.

Time and again, Blackwater has triggered incidents undermining U.S. strategies and endangering military forces. In 2004, four Blackwater men brazenly drove through the insecure city of Fallujah, were quickly cornered by a mob, were killed and burned, and their charred bodies hung from a bridge. In the ensuing outcry, U.S. forces were ordered to encircle the city, attack, withdraw and attack again, eventually leveling it.

In 2006, a drunken Blackwater mercenary murdered a bodyguard for the Iraqi vice president, and was spirited out of the country with U.S. Embassy complicity, paid off and never prosecuted.

Sept. 16, a Blackwater contingent gunned down at least 11 Iraqi civilians, Iraqi Interior Ministry to banish Blackwater,overturned by Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who agreed under U.S. pressure to accept a grudging State Department investigation.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Even the private truck driver contractors earn up to $90,000 a year. Compare that cost with the soldier assigned as a truck driver who might make $15,000 a year.

The salary that a military person makes is just a small percentage of the cost to taxpayers, starting with a soldier's recruitment costs, enlistment bonus and training. Military people can retire with significant pensions after just 20 years of service, they cost the taxpapers for their entire lifespan. (I may have the years wrong, but its about right.)

The contractors are hired because they are far cheaper in the long run.

Harlan,

THere is no study that will back you up on that..not saying you are wrong, but there is no proof.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/contractors/ceff.html

I'm prepared to offer a full & unconditonal surrender. Send all the contractors to boot camp and call them soldiers. If they don't like it, there are plenty of Mexicans ready to step into their place.

I really don't care about these accounting details. I just doubt it is a simple and obvious choice. And if you mention the name "cheney" I'm putting my hands over my ears and "BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH"ing.

[Freak Out]

Cheney.

[texaspackerbacker]

They are not and should not be subject to Iraqi or international law, and not being military, they wouldn't be covered under the UCMJ--which I assume is what you meant to say. As for American law in general, I have to admit, I'm not 100% sure--as you guys seem to be claiming to be. Could you possibly provide some documentation that Blackwater and other contractors are, as you say, actually exempted by their immunity from American law--as this still seems highly unlikely to me.

Example: Blackwater guy A decides to frag Blackwater guy B. He is immune to prosecution? I don't think so. Blackwater guy C rapes an Iraqi woman. He avoids American prosecution? I really doubt it.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

They are not and should not be subject to Iraqi or international law, and not being military, they wouldn't be covered under the UCMJ--which I assume is what you meant to say. As for American law in general, I have to admit, I'm not 100% sure--as you guys seem to be claiming to be. Could you possibly provide some documentation that Blackwater and other contractors are, as you say, actually exempted by their immunity from American law--as this still seems highly unlikely to me.

I, and others have posted the truth.

Go find it yourself. why don't you find something that proves they are. Go find ONE case of a contractor being prosecuted. Should be quite easy for you.

As for not being subject to Iraqi law...interesting as this is the first time that has EVER happened, but i'm sure you have an excuse for that as well.