Corner turned in Iraq?

[texaspackerbacker]

So AGAIN you weasel out. I wouldn't have expected otherwise from the pathetic likes of you. Hopefully, if there is any truth to what you say, Oregon will back it up with some evidence.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

So AGAIN you weasel out. I wouldn't have expected otherwise from the pathetic likes of you. Hopefully, if there is any truth to what you say, Oregon will back it up with some evidence.

WEasel out? YOu are the one making wrong statements. I have provided enough evidence/proof.

THe burden lies on you to prove that they are being prosecuted. I have shown that they aren't.

[bobblehead]

So AGAIN you weasel out. I wouldn't have expected otherwise from the pathetic likes of you. Hopefully, if there is any truth to what you say, Oregon will back it up with some evidence.

WEasel out? YOu are the one making wrong statements. I have provided enough evidence/proof.

THe burden lies on you to prove that they are being prosecuted. I have shown that they aren't.

Maybe I have read it wrong and I dont' know the truth, but I think that Blackwater is SUPPOSED to be under the american judicial system. That does not mean they have been held accountable so far, quite the opposite from what I can find.

Now, tyrone, listen close. Tex, you are wrong about this, blackwater has basically run around iraq opening fire whenever they felt like it, undermining our own troops and no one actually has held them accountable. I THINK our justice system is supposed to, but simply has chosen not to. I do agree with you that I think tyrone is wrong about them not being subject to any law...although they EFFECTIVELY have been.

This is why I would like to see them placed under the militaries jurisdiction whilie in Iraq, our military is not fond of a private company making it harder for them to gain the trust, heart and minds of the iraqi people.

Oh yea, tex did get harsh with the rhetoric, it was unneccessary. He could have simply said "just cuz you have proclaimed the truth doesn't convince me" without calling you pathetic. There, my job is done.

[bobblehead]

Time and again, Blackwater has triggered incidents undermining U.S. strategies and endangering military forces. In 2004, four Blackwater men brazenly drove through the insecure city of Fallujah, were quickly cornered by a mob, were killed and burned, and their charred bodies hung from a bridge. In the ensuing outcry, U.S. forces were ordered to encircle the city, attack, withdraw and attack again, eventually leveling it.

I do agree with you mostly, but I think this particular incident is partly what caused blackwater to get so agressive. This is NOT an example of blackwater triggering an incident, quite the opposite. I think this incident is a lot of why blackwater acted in the way they did in your follow up examples. Not saying it was right, just shedding some light on the history of events. They are/were definately acting criminally in a lot of cases, but its not like they simply went to iraq and started shooting right away, but the worse the country got in '04-'06 the more agressive blackwater got.

We have the benefit of second guessing from the safety of our computers, but they were living in a civil war. I still think putting them under military code and military jurisdiction would have been best.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Time and again, Blackwater has triggered incidents undermining U.S. strategies and endangering military forces. In 2004, four Blackwater men brazenly drove through the insecure city of Fallujah, were quickly cornered by a mob, were killed and burned, and their charred bodies hung from a bridge. In the ensuing outcry, U.S. forces were ordered to encircle the city, attack, withdraw and attack again, eventually leveling it.

I do agree with you mostly, but I think this particular incident is partly what caused blackwater to get so agressive. This is NOT an example of blackwater triggering an incident, quite the opposite. I think this incident is a lot of why blackwater acted in the way they did in your follow up examples. Not saying it was right, just shedding some light on the history of events. They are/were definately acting criminally in a lot of cases, but its not like they simply went to iraq and started shooting right away, but the worse the country got in '04-'06 the more agressive blackwater got.

We have the benefit of second guessing from the safety of our computers, but they were living in a civil war. I still think putting them under military code and military jurisdiction would have been best.

Blackwater prosecution: this is just another bush legal maneuver to exempt them..ie, redefining what is torture, etc. If the contracts were thru the DoD then MEJA woulda applied, but they ran them thru STate...and as the quote i provide shows...no one is exactly sure what is the prosecutorial ability.

Order 17,granting contractors legal immunity, is of a piece with the infamous memos written by David Addington and John Yoo which set out an unaccountable executive in the name of war, justified torture and unilaterally abrogated U.S. adherence to the Geneva Conventions.

Richard J. Griffin, head of the State Department's Bureau of Diplomatic Security, testified, "The area of laws available for prosecution is very murky." Clarifying the law was hardly helped by the absence of any witness from the Justice Department. Wow, what a surprise from this administration.

As for Blackwater being aggressive...who cares. That wasn't my point. The point was that they triggered and put our troops in harms way. Those 4 men were going thru the insecure city of Fallujah.

No way our military does that.

But, i highly doubt that was on their mind a few days after that Fallujah ambush, when Blackwater operatives engaged in an all-out firefight with supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr in the Iraqi city of Najaf, once again putting Blackwater in the center of major developments in Iraq.

To quote Waxman.."There is no evidence in the documents that the Committee has reviewed that the State Department sought to restrain Blackwater's actions, raised concerns about the number of shooting incidents involving Blackwater or the company's high rate of shooting first, or detained Blackwater contractors for investigation."

According to the committee, 80% of violence was initiated by Blackwater...and, i for one can't blame them..with nothing to fear and no fear of reprisal..i would be killing indiscriminately as well....that kid looks like a terrorist..shoot'em.

Lastly, while i certainly wouldn't want a blackwater or other contractor unfairly prosecuted...i do think that if we are exporting our brand of democracy, it looks piss poor that there isn't any due process for an iraqi victim. If our military commits crimes..there is due process.

That makes us look bad..and certainly can be used as ammo for those iraqis looking to foment trouble.

BTW, that muslim prez candidate has called for more accountability. Has McCain?

[bobblehead]

Hey, we are basically in agreement...if we have stated we don't know what law they are under, that is pathetic. They should be accountable somewhere, but I have agreed with you that they haven't been whether it was stated or not.

Not sure why you quoted my words since you and I are mostly together on this except I thought they were supposed to be under our system, I may be wrong according to a couple things you said.

Lastly, I hope the muslim presidential comment wasn't aimed at me, I have defended the guy on this charge. You quoted me and then brought it up in sarcasm, and some here may think I have said that....nothing could be further from the truth. I even did a reply all when I got that bullshit memo about him being sworn in on the koran. I think he sucks in many ways and will be a horrible president, but I have NEVER implied in any way he is a muslim. I give you the benefit of the doubt most of the time, so I'll assume you were being generally sarcastic and not aiming it at me even though it was in a post responding to me. If it was aimed at me....well, I won't be giving you the benefit of the doubt much anymore.

[oregonpackfan]

So AGAIN you weasel out. I wouldn't have expected otherwise from the pathetic likes of you. Hopefully, if there is any truth to what you say, Oregon will back it up with some evidence.

Texas,

Thanks for the compliment but Tyrone does provide some established evidence about Blackwater. If you want more evidence, I encourage you to get hold of Jeremy Scahill's book and gather more information for yourself.

The United States currently has about 160,000 military troops in Iraq. It has an amazing 140,000 private contractors in Iraq as well. In essence, the Bush administration has made efforts to privatize the Iraq War.

There are two more disturbing aspects about Blackwater not mentioned in this thread. First, many of the Blackwater soldiers are not even Americans! They are recruiting soldiers of fortune from all over the world. Some of the countries Blackwater has recruited include Chile, the Phillipines, and eastern European countries. Should we trust a private army that whose members are not all American citizens?

There have been also several firefights involving Blackwater soldiers and American soldiers fighting together where the Blackwater personnel actually took charge! This happened in the Battle of Fallujah where both groups were on a building rooftop together. The Blackwater officers were actually giving orders on gun emplacements and shooting assignments to the American soldiers next to them.

Having private army personnel directing American military personnel sets a very dangerous precedent.

[texaspackerbacker]

I have heard there are a lot of these Blackwater type contractors, although I didn't realize there were as many as 140,000. I'd say that's a good thing, as that's 140,000 less troops required.

I also don't doubt that they "run around Iraq" doing whatever, including shooting whoever, as needed. This apparently falls within the rules of engagement--identifying enemies in a wartime context and taking appropriate action.

What I STILL haven't seen evidence of, however (you guys saying so, Tyrone, does NOT constitute evidence), is the idea that bad deeds by these contractors are somehow NOT subject to American laws. Are you really telling me that if a contractor murders or rapes someone, that is covered by immunity?

If you want to make the assertion that the rules of engagement are too loose, fine, that's a matter of opinion. But whether or not violations are immune to prosecution--by our laws, that is a matter of fact. What you say SEEMS illogical. If the facts somehow are as you say, I'm simply asking you to show evidence.

[MJZiggy]

So AGAIN you weasel out. I wouldn't have expected otherwise from the pathetic likes of you. Hopefully, if there is any truth to what you say, Oregon will back it up with some evidence.

Texas,

Thanks for the compliment but Tyrone does provide some established evidence about Blackwater. If you want more evidence, I encourage you to get hold of Jeremy Scahill's book and gather more information for yourself.

The United States currently has about 160,000 military troops in Iraq. It has an amazing 140,000 private contractors in Iraq as well. In essence, the Bush administration has made efforts to privatize the Iraq War.

There are two more disturbing aspects about Blackwater not mentioned in this thread. First, many of the Blackwater soldiers are not even Americans! They are recruiting soldiers of fortune from all over the world. Some of the countries Blackwater has recruited include Chile, the Phillipines, and eastern European countries. Should we trust a private army that whose members are not all American citizens?

There have been also several firefights involving Blackwater soldiers and American soldiers fighting together where the Blackwater personnel actually took charge! This happened in the Battle of Fallujah where both groups were on a building rooftop together. The Blackwater officers were actually giving orders on gun emplacements and shooting assignments to the American soldiers next to them.

Having private army personnel directing American military personnel sets a very dangerous precedent.

Keep in mind, OPF, that when they give numbers of private contractors in Iraq, many of them are there not to fight, but to help clean up the mess left behind.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Hey, we are basically in agreement...if we have stated we don't know what law they are under, that is pathetic. They should be accountable somewhere, but I have agreed with you that they haven't been whether it was stated or not.

Not sure why you quoted my words since you and I are mostly together on this except I thought they were supposed to be under our system, I may be wrong according to a couple things you said.

Lastly, I hope the muslim presidential comment wasn't aimed at me, I have defended the guy on this charge. You quoted me and then brought it up in sarcasm, and some here may think I have said that....nothing could be further from the truth. I even did a reply all when I got that bullshit memo about him being sworn in on the koran. I think he sucks in many ways and will be a horrible president, but I have NEVER implied in any way he is a muslim. I give you the benefit of the doubt most of the time, so I'll assume you were being generally sarcastic and not aiming it at me even though it was in a post responding to me. If it was aimed at me....well, I won't be giving you the benefit of the doubt much anymore.

Relax..it was a joke. Not aimed at you. The BTW shoulda clued you in...it is an aside.

The point was..what has McCain said?

[bobblehead]

Hey, we are basically in agreement...if we have stated we don't know what law they are under, that is pathetic. They should be accountable somewhere, but I have agreed with you that they haven't been whether it was stated or not.

Not sure why you quoted my words since you and I are mostly together on this except I thought they were supposed to be under our system, I may be wrong according to a couple things you said.

Lastly, I hope the muslim presidential comment wasn't aimed at me, I have defended the guy on this charge. You quoted me and then brought it up in sarcasm, and some here may think I have said that....nothing could be further from the truth. I even did a reply all when I got that bullshit memo about him being sworn in on the koran. I think he sucks in many ways and will be a horrible president, but I have NEVER implied in any way he is a muslim. I give you the benefit of the doubt most of the time, so I'll assume you were being generally sarcastic and not aiming it at me even though it was in a post responding to me. If it was aimed at me....well, I won't be giving you the benefit of the doubt much anymore.

Relax..it was a joke. Not aimed at you. The BTW shoulda clued you in...it is an aside.

The point was..what has McCain said?

I understand it was a joke, it was about as funny as those jokes about conservatives being rascists and bigots. I really think the healing you guys want (as do I) can't begin until those little stereotypical shots are as frowned on as people making rascist jokes. They are not different and it saddens me that you don't get that. It hurts me just as much to be lumped in with bigots as it hurts blacks to get stereotyped in the ways they are.

The BTW could have just as easily been aimed directly at me, implying that I had mad such a claim and now your were asking me a question throwing my laguage back at me...remeber, the clarity of the message is the senders responsibility.

[texaspackerbacker]

The truth about Obama indeed does need to be sorted out.

Apparently it's certain that he was NOT sworn in with a Koran. On the other hand, he speaks in his own book about studying the Koran at the Madrasa in Indonesia where he was enrolled from age 6-12.

So the real question was when and why did he switch from Islam to Christianity? The most likely answer is that his wife convinced him at the time he entered politics--about 14 years ago--the being seen as a Muslim would be political suicide.

None of this would be a serious issue if not for the fact that one of the hallmarks of Obama's foreign policy is unconditional negotiation with the lunatic, Ahmedinijad--who probably more than anybody other Bin Laden symbolizes the absolute blood enemy of America and all we stand for.

[Freak Out]

None of this would be a serious issue if not for the fact that one of the hallmarks of Obama's foreign policy is unconditional negotiation with the lunatic, Ahmedinijad--who probably more than anybody other Bin Laden symbolizes the absolute blood enemy of America and all we stand for.

Unconditional? Bullshit. So Iran nukes us and Obama gets him on the phone? Don't think so.

[texaspackerbacker]

None of this would be a serious issue if not for the fact that one of the hallmarks of Obama's foreign policy is unconditional negotiation with the lunatic, Ahmedinijad--who probably more than anybody other Bin Laden symbolizes the absolute blood enemy of America and all we stand for.

Unconditional? Bullshit. So Iran nukes us and Obama gets him on the phone? Don't think so.

You lost me there with that comment, Freak Out. Could you possibly elaborate a bit?

[Freak Out]

None of this would be a serious issue if not for the fact that one of the hallmarks of Obama's foreign policy is unconditional negotiation with the lunatic, Ahmedinijad--who probably more than anybody other Bin Laden symbolizes the absolute blood enemy of America and all we stand for.

Unconditional? Bullshit. So Iran nukes us and Obama gets him on the phone? Don't think so.

You lost me there with that comment, Freak Out. Could you possibly elaborate a bit?

Sorry Texas......
I have never heard Obama sat he would "unconditionally" talk with any Iranian leader. I heard him say he would open up a dialog with Iran to talk about our differences and regional issues. Hell....I think were talking to Iran right now.