Biden No Garden Variety Liberal (He's Cream of the Crop)

[MJZiggy]

Am I for helping them stay....no, they need to go back, and come in the right way just like everyone else.

Precisely how are you figuring we're going to get them all out? Should we then ship out all of the Vietnamese refugees we brought into the country during the war? They didn't get here the right way and wait like everyone else. Careful with your answer, as my office mate is a Vietnamese refugee and if you give her crap, she will have opinions for you (actually the mere mention of Vietnam brings forth opinions).

This is just something I'm curious about, but I wonder if it was as difficult to enter the country in the past when all the Irish, Italians and other Europeans were flooding into the country. Would you live here if your ancestors had to do more than save up for passage?

[retailguy]

Am I for helping them stay....no, they need to go back, and come in the right way just like everyone else.

Precisely how are you figuring we're going to get them all out? Should we then ship out all of the Vietnamese refugees we brought into the country during the war? They didn't get here the right way and wait like everyone else. Careful with your answer, as my office mate is a Vietnamese refugee and if you give her crap, she will have opinions for you (actually the mere mention of Vietnam brings forth opinions).

This is just something I'm curious about, but I wonder if it was as difficult to enter the country in the past when all the Irish, Italians and other Europeans were flooding into the country. Would you live here if your ancestors had to do more than save up for passage?

Ziggy, circumstances shouldn't circumvent the rule of law. Ever. We prosecute the guy who steals bread to feed his family. As heartless as it seems, there is NO justification for not following the law.

Do I understand why people hop the fence? Yes. I have done taxes for HUNDREDS of them. HUNDREDS. Yes, they can file, they are expected to file and they do file, using a TIN number.

Do I think they should become citizens? NO. They broke the law. There is a process to follow, and they CHOSE not to follow it. Desperation or not, they made a choice, and they must live up to the consequences of that choice.

The practicality of sending them back or not sending them back is irrelevant. Eventually we'll have to have some sort of amnesty. It CANNOT include citizenship. They broke the law. You cannot reward someone who broke the law. Letting them stay is a different argument than letting them become citizens.

[Sparkey]

This is a good list for one thing...if you have a republican senator ranking 50-68 we should vote him/her out. JMO.

Harlan you are high if you believe america as a whole supports liberal agenda. America wants to drill now, america wants lower taxes, america is largely anti ILLEGAL immigrant, america in general wants gov't out of their lives (unless you are one of the people living off the public dole).

You missed the point. If you believe voting solidly in the Senate with the Dem Party is an indication of extremism, then you are going to believe it, but that is just preaching to the choir. I'll leave it at that. And if you don't understand the centrist nature of the Senate, you don't follow politics.

But as to whether America supports liberal issues, obviously the country is divided, and it swings back and forth. But there can be no argument that the country is backing the platform of the democratic party this fall.

"america wants to drill now", ya, they want to drill as long as its not near their state. Immigrant policy - Americans were SOLIDLY behind the immigration reform bill that republicans managed to torpedo. "lower taxes" - the reality of the Bush tax cuts is not popular.

Except in Alaska where the majority want expanded drilling. Hmmm, but how could that be

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Sheriff Joe sounds like a total jackass.

For most thinking individuals yes. But, he appeals to the white power, we are under siege crowd, the get tough on criminals crowd (they like to forget innocent until proven guilty), and the elderly.

Unfortunately Sheriff is an elected official..not like police chief.

There are many fascinating articles on him in the phoenix new times: locking up editors of newspapers, 40 mill in lawsuits due to deaths in jails, attacking political opponents (he smeared his sheriff opponent by following a lead that he raped his mother), he just asked for all the emails of Mayor Gordon after he asked for an investigation into the civil rights..every email, etc.

[mraynrand]

Sheriff Joe sounds like a total jackass.

But, he appeals to the white power, we are under siege crowd, the get tough on criminals crowd (they like to forget innocent until proven guilty), and the elderly.

Just a comment - these groups are not necessarily linked. I know folks in Tucson who fit into the elderly, under seige and get tough crowd (with innocent until proven guilty intact) and folks in the 'under seige' and 'get tough' crowds. I can't see them voting for a Sheriff Joe type, unless they were hoodwinked. but I can't say I know who is in charge in Tucson. People can't be majority extreme there if they could torpedo congressmen like Hayworth and Graf, and reelect Napolitano.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Sheriff Joe sounds like a total jackass.

But, he appeals to the white power, we are under siege crowd, the get tough on criminals crowd (they like to forget innocent until proven guilty), and the elderly.

Just a comment - these groups are not necessarily linked. I know folks in Tucson who fit into the elderly, under seige and get tough crowd (with innocent until proven guilty intact) and folks in the 'under seige' and 'get tough' crowds. I can't see them voting for a Sheriff Joe type, unless they were hoodwinked. but I can't say I know who is in charge in Tucson. People can't be majority extreme there if they could torpedo congressmen like Hayworth and Graf, and reelect Napolitano.

Sheriff Joe just recently latched on to the immigration thing...he is astute politically. He realizes that it adds to his base. I wasn't saying that all those groups are linked.

The innocent things is the worst...being kept in substandard jail..the feds have come down on him for this..and yet nothing has changed. He constantly loses lawsuits over deaths.

Hayworth: He torpedoed himself..his wife, abramoff (he kept the donations)..and his personality, prominent repubs crossed over because of him. The registered voter...favored repubs..60 to 40. He killed himself. The AZ Republic even pulled their endorsement.

He looked even more stupid waiting out results when in 96 he was exactly the opposite.

Graf: Not in my area.

Napolitano: Dino. Similar to Mayor Gordon.

[bobblehead]

Am I for helping them stay....no, they need to go back, and come in the right way just like everyone else.

Precisely how are you figuring we're going to get them all out? Should we then ship out all of the Vietnamese refugees we brought into the country during the war? They didn't get here the right way and wait like everyone else. Careful with your answer, as my office mate is a Vietnamese refugee and if you give her crap, she will have opinions for you (actually the mere mention of Vietnam brings forth opinions).

This is just something I'm curious about, but I wonder if it was as difficult to enter the country in the past when all the Irish, Italians and other Europeans were flooding into the country. Would you live here if your ancestors had to do more than save up for passage?

Don't worry about how I answer, I could be vietnamese for all you know, it would explain my poor spelling anyway. Is your office mate cute?? See the key in your response was WE BROUGHT IN.

So because it is hard to get them out we should just give in and give them a path to citizenship..that is your answer?? Its really hard to catch con artists too, especially when they flee a jurisdiction, no need to capture them and put them in jail either. And single mothers, they shouldn't be prosecuted for crimes either cuz they are desperate, we should actually reward them by giving them something of value (like a green card).

As a matter of fact fighting crime in general is naive, we can't stop crime, no need to try, time to simply accept it and not punish criminals in general.

[MJZiggy]

My point is that when we had the influx of Irish in the 1800's, they didn't have to wait to get into the country. They wrote their names down at Staten Island and that was about the end of it until they applied for citizenship. I have a cousin married to a man from Ireland. He didn't wait decades to come here. My office mate is a 60-year old married woman (to answer your question). I think a lot of this started when they took the policy that all a Cuban had to do was to set foot on American soil and they were allowed to stay. So why is it ok for Cubans and not anyone else. You seem to suggest that just because people are here when they aren't supposed to be, they are all automatically criminals because they are desperate. If that's the case, then why were the crime rates in NYC so much higher in the 80's before this became such a big problem?

I have a friend who blew in from Argentina on a work visa. His visa expired. He has 20 years experience repairing medical equipment, but you lump him in as a crime problem, but he came here legally and has no criminal record. He is working right now fixing laptops. Why is he such a threat to you? Were he legal he would most certainly be working at a good job with benefits...

[HowardRoark]

My office mate is a 60-year old married woman (to answer your question).

But is she cute?

I think a lot of this started when they took the policy that all a Cuban had to do was to set foot on American soil and they were allowed to stay. So why is it ok for Cubans and not anyone else.

Well, maybe not ALL Cubans........

[mraynrand]

I have a friend who blew in from Argentina on a work visa. His visa expired. He has 20 years experience repairing medical equipment, but you lump him in as a crime problem, but he came here legally and has no criminal record. He is working right now fixing laptops. Why is he such a threat to you? Were he legal he would most certainly be working at a good job with benefits...

Good grief, how do you argue with nonsense like this.

[retailguy]

I have a friend who blew in from Argentina on a work visa. His visa expired. He has 20 years experience repairing medical equipment, but you lump him in as a crime problem, but he came here legally and has no criminal record. He is working right now fixing laptops. Why is he such a threat to you? Were he legal he would most certainly be working at a good job with benefits...

He came legally, BUT his work visa expired. At that point, he was supposed to leave. By not leaving, he broke the law. He is now ILLEGAL. Why do circumstances determine whether he is guilty or not to you? The legality is simple.

Is it sad? Sure. But we're missing information. Why did his visa expire? Why didn't he get renewed? Did he follow procedures? Why didn't he go home like he was supposed to and follow the rules to come back?

You cannot let your emotions decide these things. EVERYONE has an excuse as to why they couldn't follow the rules. When they do, they work through the paperwork, become legal, and live happy productive lives as examples of the American dream. Let's champion a few more of those guys, ok?

[MJZiggy]

I have a friend who blew in from Argentina on a work visa. His visa expired. He has 20 years experience repairing medical equipment, but you lump him in as a crime problem, but he came here legally and has no criminal record. He is working right now fixing laptops. Why is he such a threat to you? Were he legal he would most certainly be working at a good job with benefits...

Good grief, how do you argue with nonsense like this.

I'm curious as to why you believe this is nonsense. Dude entered the country legally even though he isn't legal now...why is a Cuban with no means to be self-sufficient more welcome than someone who can contribute to society? I mean you guys are talking about rounding them up and shipping them off, that argument makes no more sense than arbitrarily deciding which group of people can just show up and stay and which can't? Is a high-tech Korean more valuable than a migrant Mexican? What if last time Tarlam were in town, he decided not to go back?

By the way, once you round up these millions of people (and collapse the agriculture industry in our country) and get them out of the country, how exactly are you intending to KEEP them out? Are you just going to round up the same 15 million people over and over again? Are MY tax dollars paying for this? Wait, I can no longer afford to pay taxes as I have to spend all my money on food because there is no underclass to exploit as cheap farm labor...

[HarveyWallbangers]

By the way, once you round up these millions of people (and collapse the agriculture industry in our country)

Wouldn't they let more people in legally on work visas?

[retailguy]

I'm curious as to why you believe this is nonsense.

because it's total emotion. No facts. You give the guy a total pass because of the circumstances he created. He's to blame, not the USA.

Dude entered the country legally even though he isn't legal now...

This is key to the situation. Do you understand that this makes him a criminal? Even if he's a "nice" criminal?

why is a Cuban with no means to be self-sufficient more welcome than someone who can contribute to society?

Since Cuba is a communist country who will not legally allow their residents to immigrate here, we must have a different policy, even if it isn't fair. Notice that other countries that are not communist with formal relations with the US follow the same policy? they get deported. Can you really not see the differences?

I mean you guys are talking about rounding them up and shipping them off, that argument makes no more sense than arbitrarily deciding which group of people can just show up and stay and which can't?

I'm not talking about that. I'd rather see employers gain incentives to follow the rules. And get punished when they don't. Deporting 15 million people as a mass effort won't work. Make it advantageous for them to go home.

Is a high-tech Korean more valuable than a migrant Mexican?

Only if he follows the rules of law. Otherwise, NO.

What if last time Tarlam were in town, he decided not to go back?

Then he would be a criminal.

By the way, once you round up these millions of people (and collapse the agriculture industry in our country) and get them out of the country, how exactly are you intending to KEEP them out?

By making it so they cannot find work, unless they are legal.

Are you just going to round up the same 15 million people over and over again?

No. that's pointless. When they can't work, they'll go where they can.

Are MY tax dollars paying for this?

You don't pay taxes. You're buying food, remember?

Wait, I can no longer afford to pay taxes as I have to spend all my money on food because there is no underclass to exploit as cheap farm labor...

Then let those of us who have figured out how to pay taxes and buy food figure it out. You have more pressing problems that need your attention.

[MJZiggy]

By the way, once you round up these millions of people (and collapse the agriculture industry in our country)

Wouldn't they let more people in legally on work visas?

Then what's the point of spending all that money to get rid of them? Why not just grant them work visas?