Drilling in Alaska

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Would you then be able to admit that palin's position is extreme?

I'm not going to discuss the defintion of life.

Not for a Christian. Life begins at conception, according to the Bible. Like mraynrand, I realize that not everybody shares my views, so it's hard for me to say that a law should be passed to ban all abortions. However, a society has to have some fundamental morals. There has to be a limit. Should we allow partial birth abortions? Late term abortions? Where's the line?

Not the old testament Harv. And, you'd be hardpressed to find the definition of that in the new testament as well. Can find as many saying the opposite.

[mraynrand]

Still waiting.

Interesting you won't answer as you criticize me for not defining my values. Waiting to hear yours.

As far as I can tell, you have no discernable values.

that says more about you than me.

Says the guy who won't discuss the definition of life.

When did you ask that question?

WTF - you said you wouldn't discuss it.

How about the definition of what you will protect? I think every effort should be made to protect human life once it is started at conception - since it will develop into one of us. That's a lot simpler that trying to figure out when the soul enters or what it is before the soul enters. We know what a human is, how it forms, etc. It's no secret.

[MJZiggy]

Would you then be able to admit that palin's position is extreme?

I'm not going to discuss the defintion of life.

Not for a Christian. Life begins at conception, according to the Bible. Like mraynrand, I realize that not everybody shares my views, so it's hard for me to say that a law should be passed to ban all abortions. However, a society has to have some fundamental morals. There has to be a limit. Should we allow partial birth abortions? Late term abortions? Where's the line?

I may be a bit rusty on my theology, but I don't remember ever reading anything in the Bible defining the beginning of life.

My view on abortion is that though I'm against it and I'd rather see every child carried to term and those that aren't wanted by the parents, adopted to the myriad infertile couples out there, I do draw the hard and fast line at the moment the baby becomes viable outside the mother's body. 20 weeks. She hung onto that kid for 5 months and even if she aborts, she has to deliver it anyway. She may as well deliver the baby alive and let someone desperate for a baby parent him or her.

[mraynrand]

Would you then be able to admit that palin's position is extreme?

I'm not going to discuss the defintion of life.

Not for a Christian. Life begins at conception, according to the Bible. Like mraynrand, I realize that not everybody shares my views, so it's hard for me to say that a law should be passed to ban all abortions. However, a society has to have some fundamental morals. There has to be a limit. Should we allow partial birth abortions? Late term abortions? Where's the line?

I may be a bit rusty on my theology, but I don't remember ever reading anything in the Bible defining the beginning of life.

My view on abortion is that though I'm against it and I'd rather see every child carried to term and those that aren't wanted by the parents, adopted to the myriad infertile couples out there, I do draw the hard and fast line at the moment the baby becomes viable outside the mother's body. 20 weeks. She hung onto that kid for 5 months and even if she aborts, she has to deliver it anyway. She may as well deliver the baby alive and let someone desperate for a baby parent him or her.

The position of the Catholic CHURCH is that life begins at conception. The Catholic church, as opposed to the Lutheran Church, for example, has more leeway in interpretation. Their position of when life begins is long standing, back to Augustine. Ensoulment is a different matter, and their are conflicting opinions on that as well.

Zig, what about the baby at 19 weeks, 6 days and 23 hours? Why draw the 'viable outside the mother's body' distinction?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Still waiting.

Interesting you won't answer as you criticize me for not defining my values. Waiting to hear yours.

As far as I can tell, you have no discernable values.

that says more about you than me.

Says the guy who won't discuss the definition of life.

When did you ask that question?

WTF - you said you wouldn't discuss it.

How about the definition of what you will protect? I think every effort should be made to protect human life once it is started at conception - since it will develop into one of us. That's a lot simpler that trying to figure out when the soul enters or what it is before the soul enters. We know what a human is, how it forms, etc. It's no secret.

I said i wouldn't discuss it..and gave you the reason.

That still doesnt' change the fact that you never asked me anything.

Life: Really? That is funny as sceintifically it is constantly evolving...i've given you 4 distinct areas that definitely have differing viewpoints within them. Why should we accept conception..and what exactly is conception..is it a single moment?

Protect: I will protect a baby. I will protect what U.S. law says.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Would you then be able to admit that palin's position is extreme?

I'm not going to discuss the defintion of life.

Not for a Christian. Life begins at conception, according to the Bible. Like mraynrand, I realize that not everybody shares my views, so it's hard for me to say that a law should be passed to ban all abortions. However, a society has to have some fundamental morals. There has to be a limit. Should we allow partial birth abortions? Late term abortions? Where's the line?

I may be a bit rusty on my theology, but I don't remember ever reading anything in the Bible defining the beginning of life.

My view on abortion is that though I'm against it and I'd rather see every child carried to term and those that aren't wanted by the parents, adopted to the myriad infertile couples out there, I do draw the hard and fast line at the moment the baby becomes viable outside the mother's body. 20 weeks. She hung onto that kid for 5 months and even if she aborts, she has to deliver it anyway. She may as well deliver the baby alive and let someone desperate for a baby parent him or her.

The position of the Catholic CHURCH is that life begins at conception. The Catholic church, as opposed to the Lutheran Church, for example, has more leeway in interpretation. Their position of when life begins is long standing, back to Augustine. Ensoulment is a different matter, and their are conflicting opinions on that as well.

Zig, what about the baby at 19 weeks, 6 days and 23 hours? Why draw the 'viable outside the mother's body' distinction?

That is its position now. So, truth changes..yes my moral friend.

[MJZiggy]

Would you then be able to admit that palin's position is extreme?

I'm not going to discuss the defintion of life.

Not for a Christian. Life begins at conception, according to the Bible. Like mraynrand, I realize that not everybody shares my views, so it's hard for me to say that a law should be passed to ban all abortions. However, a society has to have some fundamental morals. There has to be a limit. Should we allow partial birth abortions? Late term abortions? Where's the line?

I may be a bit rusty on my theology, but I don't remember ever reading anything in the Bible defining the beginning of life.

My view on abortion is that though I'm against it and I'd rather see every child carried to term and those that aren't wanted by the parents, adopted to the myriad infertile couples out there, I do draw the hard and fast line at the moment the baby becomes viable outside the mother's body. 20 weeks. She hung onto that kid for 5 months and even if she aborts, she has to deliver it anyway. She may as well deliver the baby alive and let someone desperate for a baby parent him or her.

The position of the Catholic CHURCH is that life begins at conception. The Catholic church, as opposed to the Lutheran Church, for example, has more leeway in interpretation. Their position of when life begins is long standing, back to Augustine. Ensoulment is a different matter, and their are conflicting opinions on that as well.

Zig, what about the baby at 19 weeks, 6 days and 23 hours? Why draw the 'viable outside the mother's body' distinction?

Harvey didn't mention the Catholic Church, he mentioned the Bible. I don't know if he's Catholic or not. Then again, how do you use the Bible to make laws in a country where church and state are to remain separate. You can't. Twenty weeks is what the medical field has determined as the age of viability. At 19 weeks, 6 days and 23 hours, the clinic is likely closed (Really, how many kids are conceived between 9-4). Even if the clinic weren't closed, what's the point of having an abortion at that point? I just don't see the logic.

[HarveyWallbangers]

I may be a bit rusty on my theology, but I don't remember ever reading anything in the Bible defining the beginning of life.

My view on abortion is that though I'm against it and I'd rather see every child carried to term and those that aren't wanted by the parents, adopted to the myriad infertile couples out there, I do draw the hard and fast line at the moment the baby becomes viable outside the mother's body. 20 weeks. She hung onto that kid for 5 months and even if she aborts, she has to deliver it anyway. She may as well deliver the baby alive and let someone desperate for a baby parent him or her.

I think that's fair, in a way. Like I said though, somebody else would disagree with you (and I). As a society, where do we stand? It's "nuanced."


As far as the Bible, I'll grant you that it's not overly clear. I don't have all of the exact passages, but it's pretty clear in the Bible that children in the womb are recognized as babies. The Bible recognizes the prenatal phase of life as that of a child. I never thought it was clear when that was exactly. However, I've been shown passages in the Bible that indicate to me that it's at conception.

Again, mraynrand stated a position that is very close to what I believe.

[falco]

i think the history of religion makes it pretty clear that life is sacred in the womb, but once it gets out of there its pretty much fucking worthless

[MJZiggy]

i think the history of religion makes it pretty clear that life is sacred in the womb, but once it gets out of there its pretty much fucking worthless

You do have a point there.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

I may be a bit rusty on my theology, but I don't remember ever reading anything in the Bible defining the beginning of life.

My view on abortion is that though I'm against it and I'd rather see every child carried to term and those that aren't wanted by the parents, adopted to the myriad infertile couples out there, I do draw the hard and fast line at the moment the baby becomes viable outside the mother's body. 20 weeks. She hung onto that kid for 5 months and even if she aborts, she has to deliver it anyway. She may as well deliver the baby alive and let someone desperate for a baby parent him or her.

I think that's fair, in a way. Like I said though, somebody else would disagree with you (and I). As a society, where do we stand? It's "nuanced."


As far as the Bible, I'll grant you that it's not overly clear. I don't have all of the exact passages, but it's pretty clear in the Bible that children in the womb are recognized as babies. The Bible recognizes the prenatal phase of life as that of a child. I never thought it was clear when that was exactly. However, I've been shown passages in the Bible that indicate to me that it's at conception.

Again, mraynrand stated a position that is very close to what I believe.

Harv,

The old testament, the talmud, etc. clearly show that life wasn't considered the same....the punishments were different.

The Catholic Church, including both Thomas Acquinas and Augustine of Hippo, held the view that fetuses were animated (i.e., ensouled) around day 40.

And if two men strive together and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman's husband shall lay upon him he shall pay with valuation. But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life (Exodus 21:21-23)

Clearly there is a concept of differentiation. One that was accepted by early Christians like Tertullian.

Psalm 139: 13-16 stresses again upon the growth of the child from something formless to something developed and complete.

The New Testament clearly involves God in determining the beginning of human life.

Galatians 2:20 "... the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave himself to me"

Some Christian theologians argue that humanness is acquired on a continuum, and the state of humanness is reached through the acts of birth and baptism. It has been argued, that the true acquisition of humanness cannot be obtained until after a baptism or at least birth, because miscarried fetal material is usually not accorded the signs of recognition with which some Christians note human birth and death: baptism, burial and weeping.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

i think the history of religion makes it pretty clear that life is sacred in the womb, but once it gets out of there its pretty much fucking worthless

Ty weeps for your daughter.

[mraynrand]

Would you then be able to admit that palin's position is extreme?

I'm not going to discuss the defintion of life.

Not for a Christian. Life begins at conception, according to the Bible. Like mraynrand, I realize that not everybody shares my views, so it's hard for me to say that a law should be passed to ban all abortions. However, a society has to have some fundamental morals. There has to be a limit. Should we allow partial birth abortions? Late term abortions? Where's the line?

I may be a bit rusty on my theology, but I don't remember ever reading anything in the Bible defining the beginning of life.

My view on abortion is that though I'm against it and I'd rather see every child carried to term and those that aren't wanted by the parents, adopted to the myriad infertile couples out there, I do draw the hard and fast line at the moment the baby becomes viable outside the mother's body. 20 weeks. She hung onto that kid for 5 months and even if she aborts, she has to deliver it anyway. She may as well deliver the baby alive and let someone desperate for a baby parent him or her.

The position of the Catholic CHURCH is that life begins at conception. The Catholic church, as opposed to the Lutheran Church, for example, has more leeway in interpretation. Their position of when life begins is long standing, back to Augustine. Ensoulment is a different matter, and their are conflicting opinions on that as well.

Zig, what about the baby at 19 weeks, 6 days and 23 hours? Why draw the 'viable outside the mother's body' distinction?

That is its position now. So, truth changes..yes my moral friend.

Did I say anything about truth. I was explaining the difference between the positions of the churches.

[mraynrand]

At 19 weeks, 6 days and 23 hours, the clinic is likely closed (Really, how many kids are conceived between 9-4). Even if the clinic weren't closed, what's the point of having an abortion at that point? I just don't see the logic.

I agree, what is the logic? My point is: what is the difference between a developing human at 19 weeks, 6 days, 23 ours and a human one hour later? There isn't much of one. Thus, the point - development is along a continuum and it doesn't make any sense to differentiate from one moment to the next with regard to the value of what is developing - that is as much a distraction as trying to figure out when exactly a human may be 'ensouled.'

[mraynrand]

So, truth changes..yes my moral friend.

I would argue that our understanding of the truth changes, but that there is an absolute truth. Rand believed that and Even Kant would agree with me.