7 years since 9-11

[texaspackerbacker]

The bottom line is that seven years after 9/11, we have NOT had a repeat of 9/11.

And we didn't have a terrorist attack of that magnitude before the Bush presidency. Does that mean that every preceding president defended America 100% OK? No. One could say that Clinton's lack of attention to stop the rise of terrorism was a big factor in 9/11.

You can't blame 9/11 on one administration and you can't praise one administration for there not being another 9/11.

I have always been loath to blame Clinton's people all that much for 9/11, but the fact is, THERE WAS A PATTERN--A CRESCENDO OF TERRORIST EVENTS all through the Clinton years leading up to 9/11.

More significantly, there was the closest thing we have to ONE INDIVIDUAL TO BLAME for 9/11-the JAMIE GORELICK WALL--the POLICY of the Clinton Administration, incredibly, that communications between our intelligence agencies was a BIGGER THREAT than that of our enemies--IS THAT A PROTOTYPE LEFTIST CONCEPT OR WHAT?

Somebody said INCOMPETENTS caused 9/11. An emphatic No to that! 9/11 was caused by terrorists--HIGHLY COMPETENT TERRORISTS. And it took a higher level of competence on the part of the Bush Administration to prevent it from happening again.

Security at home was a large part of that, but an interventionist foreign policy and bringing American values and dominance to the middle east--an unfinished task--were the main factors. And whether you're talking about the security aspect or the assertion of American power aspect, the same assholes of the left--Obama at the top of the list--opposed BOTH every step of the way. Call it ignorance; Call it informed America-hate; Either way, Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Murtha, Durban, and a whole host of others set themselves up as AGAINST THE SIDE OF AMERICA on the MOST IMPORTANCE ISSUE of our time.

[Kiwon]

I have always been loath to blame Clinton's people all that much for 9/11, but the fact is, THERE WAS A PATTERN--A CRESCENDO OF TERRORIST EVENTS all through the Clinton years leading up to 9/11.

More significantly, there was the closest thing we have to ONE INDIVIDUAL TO BLAME for 9/11-the JAMIE GORELICK WALL--the POLICY of the Clinton Administration, incredibly, that communications between our intelligence agencies was a BIGGER THREAT than that of our enemies--IS THAT A PROTOTYPE LEFTIST CONCEPT OR WHAT?

Somebody said INCOMPETENTS caused 9/11. An emphatic No to that! 9/11 was caused by terrorists--HIGHLY COMPETENT TERRORISTS. And it took a higher level of competence on the part of the Bush Administration to prevent it from happening again.

I'm really surprised that this debate is continuing.

Has anyone else read, The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11



While the roots of Al-Qaeda run deep, Tex is exactly right in regards to the immediate run up to 9/11.

Besides the silliness of the Russian psychology and Chernobyl comment, my problem with HH's comment is his assertion that patriotism is a bad thing.

Like press spokesmen several has been giving nuanced interpretations and defenses of HH's comments when he can simply speak for himself.

I'd like to have him answer the earlier question I posed to him. -
Why in your "world view" isn't there room for patriotism along with an "innovative, positive, engaged, optimistic" populace?

Why do the two have to be juxtaposed?

Explaining your personal definition of what patriotism is would be illuminating.

[BallHawk]

But there's patriotism and then there's chauvinism.....

[Scott Campbell]

Explaining your personal definition of what patriotism is would be illuminating.

I am in the business of pleasuring myself.

[falco]

But there's patriotism and then there's chauvinism.....

Patriotism is a good thing - I have several family members whose service to the country I am extremely proud of - and I have great pride for the troops who serve us today. Noble causes inspire patriotism. However, in the general sense of the word, I despise nationalism - I consider myself a human being before an American. All of us across the globe are human beings and are bound by this commonality. I don't put a higher value on the life of those who died on 9/11 or those innocent bystanders who died from the civil unrest in Iraq.

Now those who are responsible for those deaths? ? ? not so much...

[Harlan Huckleby]

Kiwon,

Rather than discuss patriotism, lets talk more generically about love.

I think anybody alive eventually figures out that love can be hazhardous to your health and well being.

I'm not going to talk about the negative possibilites of love, patriotism, apple pie, or puppy dogs, because you will miss the subtlety and announce that I am opposed to them.

[falco]

I haven't read this whole thread (because it would probably make my head explode) but I personally look at 9/11 the same as I do Pearl Harbor - a wistful time to remember the lives lost - to me, anything more would be disrespectful to their memories. Other people I'm sure have their own views on this and I respect that - especially those who were closer to each situation than others may have been.

[mraynrand]

I'm not going to talk about the negative possibilites of love, patriotism, apple pie, or puppy dogs, because you will miss the subtlety and announce that I am opposed to them.

[texaspackerbacker]

Harlan, could you possibly be trying to divert the discussion away from serious talk about blame for 9/11, credit for no repeats, and the absolutely devastating potential results of repeats of 9/11 or worse which make THAT the MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE currently on the agenda?

[Kiwon]

But there's patriotism and then there's chauvinism.....

Yes, and there is chauvinism and then there's patriotism.

What I'm gathering is that many younger Americans think they are the same.

It's somehow chauvinistic to put your hand over your heart and sing the national anthem, to say the "Pledge of Allegiance," to root for the USA during the Olympics, etc.

To some their identity as an American citizen is something that needs to be hidden or conflated with all the other nationalities on earth.

Days like 9/11 present a problem for them because it highlights their distinctiveness.

Radical groups targeted us (the USA and its citizens) for attack because they hate the values we represent to them. The "anti-chauvinistic" citizen hurries to say, "I'm not like those other guys you say you hate" and even goes on to say that America deserved to be humbled and get a black eye (Ward Churchill, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, for example).

Most others, however, aren't ashamed of their heritage or citizenship. They recognize that there are no perfect societies on earth, but there sure are some better than others. Only the most naive among us would argue otherwise.

The patriotic reaction to 9/11 is to remember those innocents who lost their lives, to honor individual acts of bravery, and to take offense that our country and its citizens were targeted. None of that begins to equal chauvinism.

This cynicism that being proud of your heritage and waving a flag is equal to masturbation (HH's analogy) is so inanely stupid. It's the sentiment of a confused person possessing very few core values.

[Scott Campbell]

Excellent post Kiwon.

[BallHawk]

Yup, the terrorist hate us because we love apple pie and baseball.

[texaspackerbacker]

A definition is in order here. In recent decades, chauvinism has mostly been equated to sexism--"male chauvinist pig", etc.

The REAL meaning of the word is more like ethnocentricty--in the case of Americans, AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

Is there a difference between chauvinism and patriotism? Not a substantial one--only in the minds of leftists who PRETEND to be patriotic, while they CAN'T STAND the thought of chauvinism. But they're nothing but scummy haters of America anyway, so who cares what they think.

[Harlan Huckleby]

The patriotic reaction to 9/11 is to remember those innocents who lost their lives, to honor individual acts of bravery, and to take offense that our country and its citizens were targeted. None of that begins to equal chauvinism.

I'm not sure who you are delivering this speech to, but I never questioned these activities. My comment was about degrees of emphasis.
An analogy: there is nothing wrong with grieving, but to spend the rest of your life in mourning over a loss is not productive.

This cynicism that being proud of your heritage and waving a flag is equal to masturbation (HH's analogy) is so inanely stupid. It's the sentiment of a confused person possessing very few core values.

I never denigrated pride in heritatge or patriotism per se. Like AynRand, your style is to mistate the other person's position, then attack character based on the mistatement. In your case, I think you simply can't understand other viewpoints, all subtlety is lost on you; AynRand is disingenuous.

[Partial]

I was in public speaking when I heard it happened. 2nd hour. 10th grade.