7 years since 9-11

[mraynrand]

[BallHawk]

Out of curiosity, could you tell me the 2 or 3 (or more) most influential sources (people, newspapers, magazines, TV programs, etc.) in your life that brought you to the above point of view?

Wikipedia and CNN.

Actually, I can't say there are specific sources I rely on for POV's. If you put too much stock in one source you end up with a slanted POV. I just read around: Economist, FP, Foreign Affairs, just various books here and there. You can't pin POV on simply what your sources are. If somebody said "I'm thinking of opening up a business in [insert dangerous country here] do you think it's a good idea?" you would say no. But why? Do you get this directly from one media outlet? No, you know it because somewhere along the line you heard/read/observed it and connected the dots and realize it made sense. That's probably a bad example, but I hope you get my point. We don't make decisions solely from other media outlets.

[mraynrand]

I noticed that liberating countries, individual liberties, policing international trade routes, propping up the entire globe with commerce, providing defense for most of the free world, highest GDP, were strangely missing. Ballhawk, we have better healthcare and infrastructure than any country on the globe, except perhaps a few tiny countries here and there, or countries we both protect and/or have liberated.

Liberating countries? When did this become the measure of a successful country. A successful country provides its citizens protection and opportunity to accomplish whatever their goals may be. The US does that. The US is a great country. The US does a lot of things better than the rest of the world. However, we don't do everything 100% right all the time. You can't argue that. There are some areas where we fall short.

For the U.S. it was about the time of the revolutionary war, when we liberated our first country - us! And yes, liberating countries is a great measure of success - because in every case, we defeated evil and/or corrupt liberty-crushing countries to do so. I can't imagine a better measure of success for a country than one that has the ethical high ground and the dedication to higher ideals as well as the economic and technological wherewithal to project power in the interest of liberation (without occupation - a truly novel aspect of a superpower never before seen on this globe). If you don't agree that's not a measure of the most successful country this planet has ever seen, I think perhaps your bar is set too high.

[mraynrand]

Out of curiosity, could you tell me the 2 or 3 (or more) most influential sources (people, newspapers, magazines, TV programs, etc.) in your life that brought you to the above point of view?

Wikipedia and CNN.

Actually, I can't say there are specific sources I rely on for POV's. If you put too much stock in one source you end up with a slanted POV. I just read around: Economist, FP, Foreign Affairs, just various books here and there. You can't pin POV on simply what your sources are. If somebody said "I'm thinking of opening up a business in [insert dangerous country here] do you think it's a good idea?" you would say no. But why? Do you get this directly from one media outlet? No, you know it because somewhere along the line you heard/read/observed it and connected the dots and realize it made sense. That's probably a bad example, but I hope you get my point. We don't make decisions solely from other media outlets.

You seem like a genuinely bright, interested and earnest guy. I hope you always keep searching for answers and examining new POVs.

Well, that's it for me. I have to get up early for more training to be the AMERICAN TALIBAN (I 'm going to church).

[Harlan Huckleby]

AynRand is disingenuous.

I went after your absurd analogy, comparing 9/11 and Chernobyl. Nothing disingenuous about it.

9/11 & Chernobyl are both disasters that should be dealt with, but should not be allowed to dominate psyches or policy. That is the parallel.

In an argument about terrorism, you accuse others of the "monstrous" act of absolving terrorist of responsibility, entirely blaming the gatekeepers. You know perfectly well nobody (here at least) believes such a thing, you created a strawman to rightously condemn, which is disingenuous posturing.

I argued that turning 911 into a permanent patriotic holiday and rallying cry is unwise. Kiwon announces I oppose patriotism, lack any core values. I don't think Kiwon is being disingenuous, I know from past experience that he sees the world in very simple black and white terms, he reduces all arguments to crude simplifications. He thinks in crayon.

[Kiwon]

I have to ask, how could anybody who isn't an America-HATER not be an America CHAUVINIST? The simple fact is: We, our country, our way of life, our values and heritage REALLY ARE BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE! Could/would anybody other than our resident leftist extremists possibly deny that?

I am as patriotic as the next guy, but I recognize that other countries do things as well, if not better, than we do them.

BallHawk, I would agree with you that it doesn't have to be either/or. It should be both/and.

However, there really are several, not a few, areas where the American people, their traditional values and their system of government has enabled them to distinguish themselves among the other nations of the world.

Just as we shouldn't deny deficiencies and iniquities within society we should not ignore the fields in which we excel.

Korean students are #2 in the world in math and science (I think Finland is tops). I wish American kids were #2, but they aren't. Give credit to the Korean kids that actually study. Koreans are always amazed when I mention the dropout rate among Blacks in America is 50%. Why? Because most would love to study in the USA and would do nearly anything to have the opportunity. And that's what being in America means to so many foreigners - having the opportunity on a level playing field to maximize your potential as a person.

I watched the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics with interest. There had been so much negative press about East - West issues (Tibet, Smog, Oppression, Unfair trade practices, etc) and I was wondering what kind of reception the US team would get.

To my surprise they were greeted with a huge uproar. Only the China team got a bigger reception. In fact, several of the Western countries, including Australia, got sustained applause.

Amazingly, Kobe Bryant was the popular athlete there. He was more popular than Yao Ming.

No one likes a chauvinist and fortunately Americans are not like that. The American people are the most generous on earth and do more practical good for others than any other single country.

That's exceptionalism and only one reason America is admired by both critics and fans.

We can’t overlook that there is a hard left in America that sees it only as either/or. National pride equals arrogance and chauvinism to them. A global village approach is more to their liking because equity is their goal. But the world will never be perfectly equal. Certain societies are simply more productive than others.

The more balanced approach is the correct one - strongly critiquing deficiencies within American society while not dismissing the overwhelmingly positive contributions that our 300 million citizens are making that distinguish us from other groups.

Again, I agree with you. It should be both/and, not either/or.

[Kiwon]

He thinks in crayon.

But it's so pretty.

HH, state your opinion, defend it, take your lumps and move on.

Usually you have some good points. But you are all over the map on this one. No, you have not explained yourself very well at all.

Either do it or stop vying for the "Most Misunderstood Rat" moniker and holding everyone else responsible to explain what you meant.

A third choice is to forget about it. It's gameday.

Let's enjoy seeing A-Rod shred the Lions today. See ya' in the gameday thread.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Kiwon, you "argue" with crude insults, then complain about the response.

the peacemaker stance is a little rich

[Scott Campbell]

Koreans are always amazed when I mention the dropout rate among Blacks in America is 50%. Why? Because most would love to study in the USA and would do nearly anything to have the opportunity.

I had the opportunity to talk with Rick Marjerus once - at the time head coach of the U. of U. basketball team. He said he was amazed at the difference among his players and their approach towards their education opportunity. His non-US players uniformly valued the opportunity to go to class, while he or his staff had to really keep tabs on the US kids. This was from a guy that had some of the highest graduation rates in the country.

Kids take education for granted here. I think its because of 2 reasons. 1 - it's free, and 2 - we tolerate mediocrity with concepts like "no student left behind". In other scocieties, if you're getting lousy grades, the government gets you out of school and into a trade. Kids get one shot at living a better life - school. If they screw up, that's it. You better like plumbing. And its amazing how much more appreciative these kids are towards their education opportunity.

[Scott Campbell]

Kiwon, you "argue" with crude insults, then complain about the response.

the peacemaker stance is a little rich

I think Harlan needs a hug.

[falco]

Koreans are always amazed when I mention the dropout rate among Blacks in America is 50%. Why? Because most would love to study in the USA and would do nearly anything to have the opportunity.

I had the opportunity to talk with Rick Marjerus once - at the time head coach of the U. of U. basketball team. He said he was amazed at the difference among his players and their approach towards their education opportunity. His non-US players uniformly valued the opportunity to go to class, while he or his staff had to really keep tabs on the US kids. This was from a guy that had some of the highest graduation rates in the country.

Kids take education for granted here. I think its because of 2 reasons. 1 - it's free, and 2 - we tolerate mediocrity with concepts like "no student left behind". In other scocieties, if you're getting lousy grades, the government gets you out of school and into a trade. Kids get one shot at living a better life - school. If they screw up, that's it. You better like plumbing. And its amazing how much more appreciative these kids are towards their education opportunity.

good post Scott - take a look at any graduate program in the US, particularly quantitative fields (finance, economics, math, physics, etc). Most programs have a majority of foreign students.

Its too bad blacks had to be singled out in the conversation - even though they may have a 50% graduation rate, whites similarly only have a 75% graduation rate - much better, but still indicative of a major problem.

[Scott Campbell]

equal distribution of wealth

or something..........

Or this.........

[falco]

i think rather than "equal distribution of wealth," ballhawk probably meant "income disparity" - a subtle but significant difference.

economists study the Gini coefficient, which measures the percentage of wealth held by different percentiles of the population. it is generally considered that the lower it is (the more evenly wealth is distributed), the better it is for society (lower poverty rates, lower crime rates, etc). however, any decent economist would say that that accomplishing this via transfer payments or redistribution of wealth is economically inefficient

[Iron Mike]

It really doesn't seem like 7 years ago.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

Why would God want to bless America when America is doing all it can to vote God off of the island???

[falco]

It really doesn't seem like 7 years ago.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

Why would God want to bless America when America is doing all it can to vote God off of the island???