A hidden valley in Colorado

[HowardRoark]

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

[mraynrand]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Doctors are already fleeing - across the nation, hospitals are recruiting docs from overseas.

Probably the most powerful images from Atlas Shrugged are the people on the train in the collapsing tunnel reviewing how none of it is their fault, and the scene near the end where they are trying to torture Galt to give up the secret of his zero point energy engine, and he has to help them work the electrodes, because they don't know how.

[hoosier]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

Yes, it could happen, and it could snow in July, too. For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

As for doctors and their bank accounts, most doctors I talk to can't stand the current health care system and want it changed as much as anyone. In particular they hate dealing with insurance giants like BCBS/Anthem that offer substandard reimbursement rates. Why do you assume that a universal-type health coverage program would mean less revenue for doctors? It's more likely to mean a payraise for most.

Do you know what you're talking about or are you just regurgitating what you heard, saw or read on Fox?

[HowardRoark]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

Yes, it could happen, and it could snow in July, too. For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

As for doctors and their bank accounts, most doctors I talk to can't stand the current health care system and want it changed as much as anyone. In particular they hate dealing with insurance giants like BCBS/Anthem that offer substandard reimbursement rates. Why do you assume that a universal-type health coverage program would mean less revenue for doctors? It's more likely to mean a payraise for most.

Do you know what you're talking about or are you just regurgitating what you heard, saw or read on Fox?

For what it’s worth, I don’t watch much if any TV……and I don’t watch FOX. Your little catch phrase on regurgitation is regurgitation. But I am used to that from you.

I am not saying “take their marbles” and leave. I am saying that they no longer find it worth their while to take incremental risk to make more income. It is easier to just buy a bunch of Muni Bonds and go sit in the woods. Why take risk that can produce a whole lot of jobs if they just pay tax on the rewards of that risk?

As far as Docs, I am not a Doc, but members of my family are. They tell me that this is indeed something that they worry about. If you would ever read posts, you would realize that I don’t think the current system is good…..I just don’t think moving to a Universal Model is the answer.

This thread may be hard for those whose ideas are derived from bumper stickers, but try.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

This thread may be hard for those whose ideas are derived from bumper stickers, but try.

That would be me!

But hey, I've decided we need to Free Tibet and that Fur is Murder, I've also been imagining whirrled peas, and how my Karma ran over my Dogma. Add in that pot should be legalized and that all religions should just coexist and I'm good.

[hoosier]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

Yes, it could happen, and it could snow in July, too. For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

As for doctors and their bank accounts, most doctors I talk to can't stand the current health care system and want it changed as much as anyone. In particular they hate dealing with insurance giants like BCBS/Anthem that offer substandard reimbursement rates. Why do you assume that a universal-type health coverage program would mean less revenue for doctors? It's more likely to mean a payraise for most.

Do you know what you're talking about or are you just regurgitating what you heard, saw or read on Fox?

For what it’s worth, I don’t watch much if any TV……and I don’t watch FOX. Your little catch phrase on regurgitation is regurgitation. But I am used to that from you.

I am not saying “take their marbles” and leave. I am saying that they no longer find it worth their while to take incremental risk to make more income. It is easier to just buy a bunch of Muni Bonds and go sit in the woods. Why take risk that can produce a whole lot of jobs if they just pay tax on the rewards of that risk?

As far as Docs, I am not a Doc, but members of my family are. They tell me that this is indeed something that they worry about. If you would ever read posts, you would realize that I don’t think the current system is good…..I just don’t think moving to a Universal Model is the answer.

This thread may be hard for those whose ideas are derived from bumper stickers, but try.

You still haven't provided any kind of credible evidence that either of the scenarios you describe are real or potential problems. If you can't do so, it suggests to me that you're just making up--or repeating--stories to scare the children with.

[Cheesehead Craig]

Hidden Valley? Goes good with Buffalo Wings.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Doctors are already fleeing - across the nation, hospitals are recruiting docs from overseas.

Please supply some evidence that doctors are fleeing the country or leaving the profession. That is categorically not true.

Doctors are leaving certain areas of the profession, they are leaving certain states (reimbursements aren't the same in every state), but they are most certainly not leaving the country...and we need overseas doctors to replace those leaving.

More to the point..if they want to leave...let them. That is the nature of capitalism. I would be more than happy to have qualified doctors that will work for less. And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

xxx

[SkinBasket]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

How quick you are to leave behind all your less fortunate liberal masses. Or will you be taking delegations of inner city children in need of "better" medical care with you on your foreign expeditions?

It might be nice if your argument had merit. Simply talking about coverage. If you dont' think in the next 20 years that most of our carriers aren't going to offer you the consumer the choice of doing this then you are wildly naive.

It is already happening now. Once the stigma dissapates it, adoption will be fast and furious. Especially when they tell you that you can put money in your pocket by going to Thailand for surgery.

[mraynrand]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Doctors are already fleeing - across the nation, hospitals are recruiting docs from overseas.

Please supply some evidence that doctors are fleeing the country or leaving the profession. That is categorically not true.

Doctors are leaving certain areas of the profession, they are leaving certain states (reimbursements aren't the same in every state), but they are most certainly not leaving the country...and we need overseas doctors to replace those leaving.

More to the point..if they want to leave...let them. That is the nature of capitalism. I would be more than happy to have qualified doctors that will work for less. And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

No they are not leaving the country - at least not is droves. They are leaving (fleeing) the profession (early retirement) or choosing not to enter. Specifically in certain disciplines. And in many of these disciplines, foreigners are being recruited, often resulting in reduction in quality of services. And, if you're happy to go to foreign countries for medical care, all I can say is, the sooner the better. Cuba is waiting for your return.

[Tyrone Bigguns]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Doctors are already fleeing - across the nation, hospitals are recruiting docs from overseas.

Please supply some evidence that doctors are fleeing the country or leaving the profession. That is categorically not true.

Doctors are leaving certain areas of the profession, they are leaving certain states (reimbursements aren't the same in every state), but they are most certainly not leaving the country...and we need overseas doctors to replace those leaving.

More to the point..if they want to leave...let them. That is the nature of capitalism. I would be more than happy to have qualified doctors that will work for less. And, i will be more than happy to go to foreign countries and receive better care for less.

No they are not leaving the country - at least not is droves. They are leaving (fleeing) the profession (early retirement) or choosing not to enter. Specifically in certain disciplines. And in many of these disciplines, foreigners are being recruited, often resulting in reduction in quality of services. And, if you're happy to go to foreign countries for medical care, all I can say is, the sooner the better. Cuba is waiting for your return.

So, now you are basing your argument on early retirement? LOL

Choosing not to enter the field? Really? Another mistatement on your part. Med school apps are up.

And, specific fields. That has always been the case. That isn't news. Wow, what a surprise that a growing number of docs don't want to be internists. Wow, what a surprise that a docs dont' gravitate to ob/gyn in small rural towns. Shocking!

Reduction in quality: Again, some stats. This is more bs on your part. And, quality of care in certain countries like Thailand is better than here for surgery. A much better patient to nurse ratio.

Overseas: Proving once again your complete lack of knowledge on this subject.

https://www.healthcareitnews.com/story.cms?id=9175

http://managedhealthcareexecutive.modernmedicine.com/mhe/Visionaries/Overseas-options-Jonathan-Edelheit-helps-prepare-U/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/489465?contextCategoryId=1045

https://www.ihf-fih.org/pdf/28-30%20medical%20tourism.pdf

[HowardRoark]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

As a Conservative, I think just about all the debates going on lately boil down to the same thing…….that is, what happens if the so called “wealthy” stop what they do all together and just leave.

Ty will come back and say I need to be re-educated, but I think it is the real question. It’s easy for Obama to come out and rip the wealthy and tell the Great Unwashed that he will take more of the Wealthy person’s wealth and give it to the masses. Well guess what, the rich already have their money. They can just go away to a Hidden Valley in Colorado and still be fine, what happens then? Where exactly will the tax revenue come from then? Where will the risk taking come from when the only people left have been taught that they always will be taken care of by someone else? These types typically don’t create much. Where will ANYTHING come from in this world?

The Doctors (who are needed for any healthcare) have bank accounts. Maybe they don’t think it’s worth it anymore (high insurance costs, long hours, etc) in a new Universal Model……..maybe they head for the hills too. Then what?

Will these evil rich people forced to continue doing what has made them wealthy in the past? This is a real question for those on the Left. It could happen after all.

Yes, it could happen, and it could snow in July, too. For the first part of what you're saying, you'll need to give a bit more evidence to convince me that "multibillionaire drain" is becoming a real problem before I can take your questions seriously. Logically what you're proposing--that the richest of the rich are fed up with paying taxes and are going to take their marbles and go home (but where?)--just doesn't make sense. There might be individual cases fo such behavior, but a broader social movement in that direction just isn't plausible. So show me something tangible that proves your not just cooking up a right-wing boogeyman to scare the public into demanding that the IRS be shut down.

As for doctors and their bank accounts, most doctors I talk to can't stand the current health care system and want it changed as much as anyone. In particular they hate dealing with insurance giants like BCBS/Anthem that offer substandard reimbursement rates. Why do you assume that a universal-type health coverage program would mean less revenue for doctors? It's more likely to mean a payraise for most.

Do you know what you're talking about or are you just regurgitating what you heard, saw or read on Fox?

For what it’s worth, I don’t watch much if any TV……and I don’t watch FOX. Your little catch phrase on regurgitation is regurgitation. But I am used to that from you.

I am not saying “take their marbles” and leave. I am saying that they no longer find it worth their while to take incremental risk to make more income. It is easier to just buy a bunch of Muni Bonds and go sit in the woods. Why take risk that can produce a whole lot of jobs if they just pay tax on the rewards of that risk?

As far as Docs, I am not a Doc, but members of my family are. They tell me that this is indeed something that they worry about. If you would ever read posts, you would realize that I don’t think the current system is good…..I just don’t think moving to a Universal Model is the answer.

This thread may be hard for those whose ideas are derived from bumper stickers, but try.

You still haven't provided any kind of credible evidence that either of the scenarios you describe are real or potential problems. If you can't do so, it suggests to me that you're just making up--or repeating--stories to scare the children with.

I am not advocating shutting down the IRS. For some reason I am under the impression you are able to understand academic, esoteric ideas. Maybe I am mistaken. I have nothing personal against you, Ty, or any other Liberal……I am just trying to have a discussion. Frankly, the thing that strikes the most fear in me about my country is the lack of honest discussions about ideas that now permeates the air.

At any rate, I will give a few examples, one of which you will dismiss out of hand because it involves Reagan.

1. Here we go….Regan’s classic example (excuse my lack of specifics footnotes, I’m tired). He was an actor in the 1960s when the top marginal rate was around 90% (we’ll get those rich people!). Sometime later in the year, he would have a choice as to whether or not to make another movie. He knew that he would take home ten cents on the dollar to make another movie, so he stayed home. By staying home, he also ensured that all the other people needed to make the film (not so rich) did not make an income. This obviously hurt the little guy more than it hurt the rich actor. I know marginal rates are not at 90% now, remember, this is an academic discussion.

2. As far as Doctors, back in 2002 (I think, OregonPackFan can verify), Oregon had a referendum on the ballot for State Universal healthcare. It failed. I know/knew Docs in Portland at that time. The older ones, within a few years of retirement, warned their nursing staffs that they would retire early if it passed. Younger Docs, who were not tied down by family, etc, were ready to move to a different state. This goes to Ty’s point actually. He stated that Docs move between states depending on state involvement.

3. Lastly, and this might be somewhat of a digression, but GM today is an example of how the so called “bogeyman” of math catches up with things. For every 100 employees at GM, they work to cover around 330 retired GM workers. You could make a pretty good argument that GM is nothing more than an under funded pension account that tries to sell cars to meet their obligations. It is about to go bankrupt under this weight. This is the same that will happen to our country.

I have a pretty strong feeling that the next few years will be very difficult for the “rich” in our country. But our system needs the “rich.” Every Monday morning the sun rises and the system BEGS for a new person to step up to the plate and become rich. Our county will fail without the risk takers who are rewarded for these risks. That’s the point I am trying to make.

I know nothing about you, but let’s say you are worth $10 million, and are very good at starting software companies. These companies typically employ anywhere from 10-80 people. The question I have is what is a good marginal tax rate to keep guys like you in the game?

One last thing....I don't consider my fellow countrymen and women "children."

[hoosier]

Re: A hidden valley in Colorado

At any rate, I will give a few examples, one of which you will dismiss out of hand because it involves Reagan.

1. Here we go….Regan’s classic example (excuse my lack of specifics footnotes, I’m tired). He was an actor in the 1960s when the top marginal rate was around 90% (we’ll get those rich people!). Sometime later in the year, he would have a choice as to whether or not to make another movie. He knew that he would take home ten cents on the dollar to make another movie, so he stayed home. By staying home, he also ensured that all the other people needed to make the film (not so rich) did not make an income. This obviously hurt the little guy more than it hurt the rich actor. I know marginal rates are not at 90% now, remember, this is an academic discussion.

Let me get this straight. The top marginal rate in 1960 was indeed 90% (actually it was 91%), but it was applied for income over $400,000. Do you REALLY think Reagan was taking in over 400K a year as an actor? And do you really think that if Reagan decided not to act in a film that his decision would affect whether or not a film got produced??? Howie, it looks like you are grossly overestimating Reagan's worth and influence as an actor. Where did you pull this stuff from? It's great stuff; I'd love to read more!

2. As far as Doctors, back in 2002 (I think, OregonPackFan can verify), Oregon had a referendum on the ballot for State Universal healthcare. It failed. I know/knew Docs in Portland at that time. The older ones, within a few years of retirement, warned their nursing staffs that they would retire early if it passed. Younger Docs, who were not tied down by family, etc, were ready to move to a different state. This goes to Ty’s point actually. He stated that Docs move between states depending on state involvement.

This is anecdotal. I know doctors who are thinking about getting out because they're sick and tired of dealing with BCBS. So should we abolish private insurance companies or go back to a system with high degree of government regulation just because I know a few doctors who hate the current system? If we're going to discuss this seriously we need to move away from "Howie knows some doctors in Oregon who think universal health care is a bad idea" and "Retail Guy hired some people who don't like to work."

3. Lastly, and this might be somewhat of a digression, but GM today is an example of how the so called “bogeyman” of math catches up with things. For every 100 employees at GM, they work to cover around 330 retired GM workers. You could make a pretty good argument that GM is nothing more than an under funded pension account that tries to sell cars to meet their obligations. It is about to go bankrupt under this weight. This is the same that will happen to our country.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. When did we start talking about pensions?

I have a pretty strong feeling that the next few years will be very difficult for the “rich” in our country. But our system needs the “rich.” Every Monday morning the sun rises and the system BEGS for a new person to step up to the plate and become rich. Our county will fail without the risk takers who are rewarded for these risks. That’s the point I am trying to make.

I know nothing about you, but let’s say you are worth $10 million, and are very good at starting software companies. These companies typically employ anywhere from 10-80 people. The question I have is what is a good marginal tax rate to keep guys like you in the game?

The top marginal rate now in the US is what, 35% now? And Obama wants, what, to bump it up to 39% How can you possibly sit there and write that the next few years are giong to be "very difficult" for the rich? Look at where income distribution has been going in this country over the past few decades: the rich are getting richer and the divide between rich and poor is getting larger and larger. We can argue later about why that's the case and whether or not it's something that needs to change, but for now I just want to point out that your claim that the rich are facing hard times is not supported by the facts. On the contrary, the facts show exactly the opposite.