How wealth is created...

[GK]

There are currently no market forces in healthcare. None. That is why a CT scan can cost up to $3000, depending on where it is done. What should a CT scan cost? Who knows? If market forces had been in place for the last three decades, a CT scan would probably cost around $25.

You are badly misinformed. There is no conspiracy anyhere that is keeping the cost of healthcare high. And the collusion you speak of is the only thing holding costs down.

But healthcare prices have not been set by the market. How are they set? Big government and big companies sit down and negotiate big contracts between each other, so big important people can be happy with those prices.

Insurance companies bargain with providers, and this simply serves to contain costs. With medicare, the government sets the price it will pay for each service, and public hospitals or medicare-authorized private hospitals must offer the services for those prices. These prices are a fraction of the free market prices.

I have a friend who has paid medical bills in three different ways: out of pocket, with private insurance, and now with medicare. Bills for the same services were FAR higher when he paid them out of pocket as compared to what his private insurer negotiated. And under medicare, the government pays about 50% of what the private insurer payed.

Your perceptions of how things work are completely wrong.

Healthcare is not a right. It is a good and a service. That is a fact.

Not a fact, a statement of your values. You believe that health care should be treated like any other commodity. I disagree. Most people around the world see this issue very differently. I view health care like education, it is wise for the public good to make it available for all.

what is the most effective and most efficient way to get these goods and services to the most people for the lowest price? The answer to that question is not debatable—it is the free market.

Our health care system has more free market characteristics than in any other developed country. We have excellent medical care for those who have good insurance, but overall our system is terrible, in my opinion. we allow insurance companies to cherry pick customers, and the market chaos produces inefficiencies in billing. Give me a single payer system, your free market is a disaster.

I am sorry Harlan, but you are so badly misinformed that I am not sure where to start. Let's start with your statement about healthcare as a right. You say that it is a reflection of my "values" that it is not a right. You think that it is a right. I need to know, how can something be a right that depends on the effort and work of another person? How can that be? If I were a health care provider, then Mr. Jones in Tennessee has a right to something that requires me to get up at 5:00 AM and put in a 12 hour day so that he can have his right? Please explain that to me. What if I decide to quit my job, move to Montana, and become an artist? What happens to Mr. Jones' right then? Is that neat new "civilian security force" going to make sure that those who provide healthcare do not decide to become artists ever? Simple question: How can something that depends on the sweat and work of another person be called a right?

Second, you say that in your example, paying out of pocket is the most expensive scenario. I'll say it again - that is because we do not have market forces. Some parts of the industry ask for private pay, but it is patently obvious that if 80% of the industry is regulated by big business and government, if a small group of people off in the corner tries to make a little "free market," they are going to be constrained by the prices set by the big companies and government. The whole thing needs to be free.

You are enamored with other countries. I would ask you - is there a right to gamma knife surgery in Norway? What, they don't have it? How can that be? We have it in America! So there is not a right to gamma knife surgery in Norway. Hmmmm, now what? I guess I'll have to wait for you to explain that one to me. If there is a right to healthcare in these other countries, how can there not be a right to gamma knife surgery?

[SkinBasket]

BTW, welcome to the stew GK. It's smelly, doesn't taste good, and the main ingredients are a delicate blend of self importance, ignorance, and essence of Harlan, but we always welcome more flavor.

There, now tarlam can get off my balls.

[GK]

BTW, welcome to the stew GK. It's smelly, doesn't taste good, and the main ingredients are a delicate blend of self importance, ignorance, and essence of Harlan, but we always welcome more flavor.

There, now tarlam can get off my balls.

Thanks for the welcome. I promise to go heavy on the self-importance and light on the ignorance. But I suspect Harlan would disagree.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I am sorry Harlan, but you are so badly misinformed that I am not sure where to start?

We are both so convinced of the other person's absolute ignorance, that one of us must be really, really dopey. Problem is, we don't know which one. I'll try and check myself from time to time in case it is me.

Let's start with your statement about healthcare as a right. You say that it is a reflection of my "values" that it is not a right. You think that it is a right. I need to know, how can something be a right that depends on the effort and work of another person? How can that be?

The word "right" is inflamatory, it raises the bar, and it carries a sense of entitlement that gets people's backs up.

Do you believe there is a right for every citizen to recieve a highschool education? That is a VERY expensive service given away to people, children from poor families sometimes are being subsidized by richer families.

Are you against public education? It violates your principle.

Public education is a "right" in the sense that we as a people have chosen to treat it that way. My view is that a basic level of health care should be treated as a "right" in the same sense as education. It should be provided to all citizens for the public interest, and as a basic decency.

How can something that depends on the sweat and work of another person be called a right?

Every nickle that the government collects in taxes depends on the sweat of somebody, and it gets redistributed. You don't get to keep all of your money, we don't live in a pure free market society, we have a government that spends some of our money for the collective good. Ted Kaczynski's spot out in Montana is available if you don't want to play along, but you'll have to build a new cabin.

Second, you say that in your example, paying out of pocket is the most expensive scenario. I'll say it again - that is because we do not have market forces.?

Except there ARE market forces. Insurance companies and HMO's have leverage in negotiating with providers. THEY HAVE MORE MARKET POWER THAN INDIVIDUAL CONSUMERS COULD EVER HOPE TO HAVE.

I understand what you are saying. Just let everybody shop, individual self-interest is the strongest incentive. I seriously doubt this could work, people are not doctors who can weigh the value of different medical services - have you ever tried to decipher a medical bill? And there are many considerations beyond price. Your open market would be a disaster, certainly less effective in controling costs than the existing market.

And how would your open market deal with the problem of individuals with pre-existing conditions? (Stupid question, I suppose, you obviously don't care about these people.)

Sorry, but you have a fuzzy understanding of the current system, it is not a conspiracy of insurance companies, the government, and big providers. Those parties are at odds, the insurance companies and government are fighting hard to contain costs.

You are enamored with other countries. I would ask you - is there a right to gamma knife surgery in Norway? What, they don't have it? How can that be? We have it in America!

I am not enamored of other countries, just aware of them. Conservatives promulgate the ignorant perception that health care is a choice between a free market and socialized medicine. The reality is quite different! Every country has fashioned their own blend, and they are constantly tweaking their systems. No system works smoothly.

You mentioned gamma knife surgery: there is no reason why we can't have a free market for premium services on top of any government program.

[falco]

wealth is created by pimping your bitches

[HowardRoark]

The word "right" is inflamatory, it raises the bar, and it carries a sense of entitlement that gets people's backs up.

Do you believe there is a right for every citizen to recieve a highschool education? That is a VERY expensive service given away to people, children from poor families sometimes are being subsidized by richer families.

Are you against public education? It violates your principle.

Public education is a "right" in the sense that we as a people have chosen to treat it that way. My view is that a basic level of health care should be treated as a "right" in the same sense as education. It should be provided to all citizens for the public interest, and as a basic decency.

I personally don’t think the word “right” is, or should be, inflammatory. Nor do I think that education is a “right.” It is something that we as a society have deemed important enough for the overall greater good. It is something that we have decided will make our overall society work better. It does not go to our better angels; rather, to our selfish angels.

Do we have a right to roads?

[mraynrand]

Do we have a right to roads?

Did we have a right to Rhodes?

[Cy]

GK wrote:
Healthcare is not a right. It is a good and a service. That is a fact.

Harlan then wrote:
Not a fact, a statement of your values. You believe that health care should be treated like any other commodity. I disagree. Most people around the world see this issue very differently. I view health care like education, it is wise for the public good to make it available for all.

No. It is a fact. If I have a right to health care, why does my lower back still hurt?

You would respond, "As long as the care is availabe, you ought to have access to it."

But there is precisely the difference between a right and a good or service. There is a limited supply of goods and services. There is not a limited supply of rights.

The law of scarcity does not work when speaking of rights.

And so, just because care is available for my lower back does not mean that I will necessarily have access to it. If there are limited supplies of doctors and limited supplies of time and resources to heal my back, then that would be a problem for my back, would it not? The law of scarcity kicks in. And if the law of scarcity limits my right, can it really be called a right?

But the law of scarcity does not limit rights, as traditionally understood. Rather, tyranny limits rights as traditionally understood. That is, the whole world could enjoy the full fruition of their natural rights, if merely the governemnts of the world got out of their way and codified them in their law.

And not a single resource would be expended.

Not so with health care. The only way to make every lower back pain dissappear would be to make, aye, force, a bundle of people to study and become back doctors, and to decree that a bundle of whatever other resources are needed (hospitals, ORs, beds, etc. etc.).

But of course, then that would take away resources from other things that you deem as a right, such as education (which I have a right to get my PhD.) and my developing knee popping.

Which brings up other issues. How much education do I have a right to? What exact pains do I have a right to be cared for? And who will make this decision?

You would say, "The experts." And that leads directly into fascism, socialism, progressivism, or whatever you want to call your perverted understanding of collective rights.

You are right, however, about one thing. Your's is simply an opinion.

[Cy]

The word "right" is inflamatory, it raises the bar, and it carries a sense of entitlement that gets people's backs up.

Do you believe there is a right for every citizen to recieve a highschool education? That is a VERY expensive service given away to people, children from poor families sometimes are being subsidized by richer families.

Are you against public education? It violates your principle.

Public education is a "right" in the sense that we as a people have chosen to treat it that way. My view is that a basic level of health care should be treated as a "right" in the same sense as education. It should be provided to all citizens for the public interest, and as a basic decency.

How could education possibly be a right?

We don't make determinations about what rights are based on warm fuzzies that they give us in our hearts. We base them on pretty heady philosophizing, and quite frankly, your arguments do not attain the level of rationalization that has hence far contributed to the discussion of what rights are.

"Education gives me warm fuzzy, therefore must be right." Doesn't work that way. Sorry.

"Are you against public education?" Sure, why not? I think it sucks. I think it sucks that I have to (a) pay a property tax to support a crappy urban public school that I would NEVER send my own child to, and therefore (b) I have to hunt around for a parochial school that hasn't given in to the social justice propaganda (leaving out catholic education), and therfore (c) have to trek 30 miles a day on today's gas prices to find a suitable school. The costs (in taxes, tuition, and gas) add up to about $600/month, that I am ill equipt to afford.

Public school is a crime, and its foremost victims, are blacks. After them, anyone else who is trying to give their children a decent education.

You really brought up public education? As a right?

[falco]

come on guys these posts are getting too long, tone it down a little

[Harlan Huckleby]

Cy, I agree with you that there is no inherent right to health care. It can be thought of like any other commodity, if that is how you choose to view it. I think it is wise to give health care to all citizens.

It sounds like you are for an every-man-for-himself society. I think the outcome would be brutally unpleasant and violent.

[wist43]

Re: How wealth is created...

extreme forms of collectivism results in stacks of bloody corpses.

True. And extreme forms of capitalism have led to the failure of the financial markets in the U.S., and a every-man-for-himself healthcare system that leaves many people uninsurable.

I am not able to think up a good analogy for the relationship between capitalism and socialism. OK, here's one that will do: they are like gasoline and air in an internal combustion engine.

You need both elements in balance. Arguing that air is bad, it robs the engine of power is sort of true. And arguing that gasoline is bad because it floods the engine is also true enough.

(I know, socialism is the hot air.)

Your speech on the virtues of capitalism is true enough. But also simple minded and unhelpful. We need free markets plus checks on the free market. We need incentives and a safety net.

Bullshit.

It was government meddling that led to the current housing/auto/credit market melt down. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac along with all other manner of government prodding, i.e. financial institutions being pressured into making loans to borrowers who simply could not get loans in a competitive capitalist market.

As for your health care comment. Bullshit.

America has the finest health care system in the world, bar none. And what shortcomings do exist, exist b/c of government mandates and interference. Are you aware, that if you are a doctor, and seek to provide services for cash, that the feds will lock you out of the medicare/medicaid system??? It's about power and control. That's what government does, that's what government is about.

And as for your "uninsurable" comment... so what if someone is "uninsurable". What does that mean??? Are they covered??? Of course they are, anyone, ANYONE, can go into a hospital and be treated. Can they get limosine liberal care??? No, but they can get basic care, and better in most cases... more than can be said of any other country in the world. There's a reason everyone comes to the U.S. for medical care. There's a reason everyone comes to this country for all manner of things.

The reason is excellence and achievement born out of freedom and born out of the free market.

That said, I do believe there is a role for government to curb immoral behavior on the part of robber barons, be they present day or latter day, i.e. the antitrust legislation from the Teddy Roosevelts era. J.P. Morgan, J.D. Rockefeller, Bernard Baruch, Jacob Schiff, et al, were they not harnessed, they would have continued to abuse American labor, and continued to monopolize industry to the point of creating their own form of tyranny.

Which of course, they effectively accomplished with the passage of the Federal Reserve Act... which of course was authored by German banker, and Rothschild/Morgan apparatchik Paul Warburg. In case you haven't noticed it is the blue blood, moneyed class going back decades that has always championed every socialist advance in this country.

HH, I like you, but get your shit straight b/4 you start calling something you know nothing about "simple minded".

[wist43]

Cy, I agree with you that there is no inherent right to health care. It can be thought of like any other commodity, if that is how you choose to view it. I think it is wise to give health care to all citizens.

It sounds like you are for an every-man-for-himself society. I think the outcome would be brutally unpleasant and violent.

HH,

My apologies for being curt with you, but I've really had it with ignorance... just had it.

The understanding amongst my fellow citizens of even the most basic principles of freedom is microscopic.

The election of Obama is proof of that fact... and, if you've read any of my posts, you'd know that I'd throw most Republicans under that same bus.

Still, my venting stands... I do feel a bit better to have blasted a couple of "bullshits" out there

Take care,

[Harlan Huckleby]

Re: How wealth is created...

It was government meddling that led to the current housing/auto/credit market melt down. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac along with all other manner of government prodding, i.e. financial institutions being pressured into making loans to borrowers who simply could not get loans in a competitive capitalist market

what you describe is about 25% of what happened.

And as for your "uninsurable" comment... so what if someone is "uninsurable". What does that mean??? Are they covered??? Of course they are, anyone, ANYONE, can go into a hospital and be treated.

Its too long of a discussion to get back into. But not having insurance can quickly ruin a person financially. And humans need care beyond emergency response. A lot of services are witheld from people with no ability to pay, I've seen it.

[wist43]

Re: How wealth is created...

It was government meddling that led to the current housing/auto/credit market melt down. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac along with all other manner of government prodding, i.e. financial institutions being pressured into making loans to borrowers who simply could not get loans in a competitive capitalist market

what you describe is about 25% of what happened.

And as for your "uninsurable" comment... so what if someone is "uninsurable". What does that mean??? Are they covered??? Of course they are, anyone, ANYONE, can go into a hospital and be treated.

Its too long of a discussion to get back into. But not having insurance can quickly ruin a person financially. And humans need care beyond emergency response. A lot of services are witheld from people with no ability to pay, I've seen it.

I haven't read Buchanans book, but HH, it is obvious that you have no idea how nations, do in fact, die.

Well intentioned, good hearted people... and, that would seem to be you... go back and read some history my friend. I gave up trying to educate people a long time ago; tonight, and the last couple of weeks here in the romper room, I've just been doing some venting.

Start with the Federalist Papers... couldn't have said it better myself. Besides, those guys were much better educated, and much more intelligent than I am. Can't read those w/o coming away a believer in republicanism, freedom, capitalism... and the sheer folly of democracy and socialism.