How wealth is created...

[HarveyWallbangers]

60 million have no insurance.

Is this the bogus number that is often cited? The one that includes millions that are between jobs temporarily at some point during the year and don't have coverage for a few weeks? The one that includes those that are financially able to buy health insurance, but choose not to?

[mraynrand]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Truly I am. I'm also horrified that the number of uninsured seems to have gone up 10 million since your healthcare post last week.

well, we're getting close to the election.

times are rough, man.

That doesn't mean you should make up numbers or misrepresent the uninsured as people without access to healthcare.

[Harlan Huckleby]

ya, ok.

I was listening to George Will start to argue that the current financial crisis is due to an absence of free markets.

Unfortunately, he never got around to explaining details, I would be interested in where he could possibly coming from. Maybe he meant the same point you are making.

I am like John McCain, I don't claim to understand all that economics stuff.

[Harlan Huckleby]

60 million have no insurance.

Is this the bogus number that is often cited? The one that includes millions that are between jobs temporarily at some point during the year and don't have coverage for a few weeks? The one that includes those that are financially able to buy health insurance, but choose not to?

nobody should be without health insurance, ever, period.

we need to get there from here.

[mraynrand]

60 million have no insurance.

Is this the bogus number that is often cited? The one that includes millions that are between jobs temporarily at some point during the year and don't have coverage for a few weeks? The one that includes those that are financially able to buy health insurance, but choose not to?

nobody should be without health insurance, ever, period.

we need to get there from here.

What if we give them insurance under a federal mandate and the result is a drop in the quality of the health care itself?

[HarveyWallbangers]

nobody should be without health insurance, ever, period.

we need to get there from here.

What percentage of that 60 million could afford it? We'd have a more honest grasp of the situation if people wouldn't fudge numbers.

[Harlan Huckleby]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Truly I am. I'm also horrified that the number of uninsured seems to have gone up 10 million since your healthcare post last week.

well, we're getting close to the election.

times are rough, man.

That doesn't mean you should make up numbers or misrepresent the uninsured as people without access to healthcare.

ahhh, so you're still grinding that one.

I can't address the question of people who could easily afford health insurance but go without it. I suspect it is mostly young and foolish people, and not so many.

Not having health insurance, or some government assistance, effectively bars a person from access to healthcare for all but emergency situations. It is unaffordable, it has to be an emergency before anyone will pay the price of financial ruin.

[Harlan Huckleby]

nobody should be without health insurance, ever, period.

we need to get there from here.

What percentage of that 60 million could afford it? We'd have a more honest grasp of the situation if people wouldn't fudge numbers.

It is important to look at anecdotal evidence. By talking to people who have no insurance, you learn the landscape. You're right, maybe the true numbers are more like 10 million who slip between the cracks. But even so, that doesn't fundamentally change the problem. And if the true number is 100 million, its the same thing.

[mraynrand]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Truly I am. I'm also horrified that the number of uninsured seems to have gone up 10 million since your healthcare post last week.

well, we're getting close to the election.

times are rough, man.

That doesn't mean you should make up numbers or misrepresent the uninsured as people without access to healthcare.

ahhh, so you're still grinding that one.

I can't address the question of people who could easily afford health insurance but go without it. I suspect it is mostly young and foolish people, and not so many.

Not having health insurance, or some government assistance, effectively bars a person from access to healthcare for all but emergency situations. It is unaffordable, it has to be an emergency before anyone will pay the price of financial ruin.

First, the 60 million is a lie. It is less than 50. 12-20 are illegal immigrants. The largst class are those who can afford it. Some estimates are as low as 20%, some as high as 40%. The rest are covered by either medicare, medicaid or schip, but they don't know it/aren't enrolled until they go in. You are incredibly ignorant on this topic, as are a lot of other people yelling for universal insurance. Insurance does not guarantee quality care, speed of care, or breadth of care. You are in a bad situation, being denied coverage for a pre-existing condition. I've been down that road. Try getting any life insurance if you have a terminal disease - it's almost impossible. That's the reality and it sucks. But that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to spread false numbers and remain ignorant and misrepresent the reality of the health care system in this country.

[HarveyWallbangers]

You're right, maybe the true numbers are more like 10 million who slip between the cracks. But even so, that doesn't fundamentally change the problem. And if the true number is 100 million, its the same thing.

I don't think so. I think it would fundamentally change the question we would be asking ourselves.

[Harlan Huckleby]

What if we give them insurance under a federal mandate and the result is a drop in the quality of the health care itself?

I have a friend, more like an ex-friend, who is extremely liberal. She accuses me of being a closet conservative, sorta hate me for it. The one point where she abandons her liberal stripes is with health care. She does not want the health care system to be expanded to include everybody, because she says there is not enough health care capacity to go around, she doesn't want to degrade her own access.

Hell, at least she is honest. I think her opinion is typical, she is just more honest than many. I think this is the main holdup in expanding health care to all - the ones who have don't want to share.

[Harlan Huckleby]

First, the 60 million is a lie. It is less than 50. 12-20 are illegal immigrants. The largst class are those who can afford it.

Lies! Lies! Lies!

I don't trust your numbers. And your comments about medicare show you don't know what you are talking about.

[mraynrand]

I would argue that there is plenty of health care capacity to go around. One on the main problems is that there are tons of people who use the system who have no incentive to reduce their use of it - the cost to use the system is very low for very many. It creates a situation of artificially high demand, driving up prices. And that influences the pharmaceutical companies and the devices industries as well. If they know that there will be no check (that is normal cost considerations from consumers) on their products, they can push expensive new superfluous stuff with no consequence - which drives up prices and health care costs even more - making it more expensive for those without insurance, to purchase it. It would help to have some more free market principles in the health care industry.

[Harlan Huckleby]

You're right, maybe the true numbers are more like 10 million who slip between the cracks. But even so, that doesn't fundamentally change the problem. And if the true number is 100 million, its the same thing.

I don't think so. I think it would fundamentally change the question we would be asking ourselves.

well, if there are just a relatively small people without health insurance, should be so difficult to expand medicare to cover them.




you conservatives want to have it every which way.

IT is hard to know about the numbers. Again, it best to look around you, notice all the small businesses that provide no health benefits, talk to people between 40-65 who seek insurance.

And then make a simple moral judgement: Is it ethical to have a system that denies sick people insurance?

[Harlan Huckleby]

It would help to have some more free market principles in the health care industry.

Applying free market principles to health care is morally wrong.