How wealth is created...

[mraynrand]

You're right, maybe the true numbers are more like 10 million who slip between the cracks. But even so, that doesn't fundamentally change the problem. And if the true number is 100 million, its the same thing.

I don't think so. I think it would fundamentally change the question we would be asking ourselves.

well, if there are just a relatively small people without health insurance, should be so difficult to expand medicare to cover them.

Medicare is expanding at around 7.5% per year - almost twice inflation and GDP growth. Even at that rate of expansion, it won't cover the increasing population demand. Much of that is of course is demographics - having a big aging population bubble.

[mraynrand]

First, the 60 million is a lie. It is less than 50. 12-20 are illegal immigrants. The largst class are those who can afford it.

Lies! Lies! Lies!

I don't trust your numbers. And your comments about medicare show you don't know what you are talking about.

Last week you said 50 million. This week you say 60 million. Source?

[HowardRoark]

It would help to have some more free market principles in the health care industry.

Applying free market principles to health care is morally wrong.

What in the world do you mean be this? What about food then? Or heat? I think it is morally wrong to NOT have free-markets deliver healthcare and education.

[Harlan Huckleby]

First, the 60 million is a lie. It is less than 50. 12-20 are illegal immigrants. The largst class are those who can afford it.

Lies! Lies! Lies!

I don't trust your numbers. And your comments about medicare show you don't know what you are talking about.

Last week you said 50 million. This week you say 60 million. Source?

my anus

[mraynrand]

It would help to have some more free market principles in the health care industry.

Applying free market principles to health care is morally wrong.

Even if it works to provide better care and more care to more people?

[Harlan Huckleby]

It would help to have some more free market principles in the health care industry.

Applying free market principles to health care is morally wrong.

What in the world do you mean be this? What about food then? Or heat? I think it is morally wrong to NOT have free-markets deliver healthcare and education.

That's an interesting comparison. We don't allow people to starve, and we should allow people access to decent health care.

The cost of keeping a person fed is low and relatively constant from person to person.
Health care costs vary wildly from person to person. A free market makes it impossible for some individuals to obtain health care, whereas a free market can provide food for everyone (with just a very modest safety net.)

[Harlan Huckleby]

It would help to have some more free market principles in the health care industry.

Applying free market principles to health care is morally wrong.

Even if it works to provide better care and more care to more people?

no, of course not.

you have to deal with reality, not just theory.

We have a relatively free market now, its not working.

[HowardRoark]

It would help to have some more free market principles in the health care industry.

Applying free market principles to health care is morally wrong.

What in the world do you mean be this? What about food then? Or heat? I think it is morally wrong to NOT have free-markets deliver healthcare and education.

That's an interesting comparison. We don't allow people to starve, and we should allow people access to decent health care.

The cost of keeping a person fed is low and relatively constant from person to person.
Health care costs vary wildly from person to person. A free market makes it impossible for some individuals to obtain health care, whereas a free market can provide food for everyone (with just a very modest safety net.)

Do you think we have a free-market in health care presently?

[Harlan Huckleby]

Do you think we have a free-market in health care presently?

relatively speaking, ya.

It is not government interference that allows insurance companies to deny coverage to people based on their risk level.

[HarveyWallbangers]

http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2007/20070718153509.aspx

Each of these people and media outlets incorrectly claimed the number of uninsured to be 40 to 50 million Americans. The actual total is open to debate. But there are millions of people who should be excluded from that tally, including: those who aren’t American citizens, people who can afford their own insurance, and people who already qualify for government coverage but haven’t signed up.

Government statistics also show 45 percent of those without insurance will have insurance again within four months after job transitions.

Accounting for all those factors, one prominent study places the total for the long-term uninsured as low as 8.2 million – a very different reality than the media and national health care advocates claim.

The Kaiser Family Foundation, a liberal non-profit frequently quoted by the media, puts the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for current government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 13.9 million and 8.2 million. That is a much smaller figure than the media report.

[mraynrand]

http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2007/20070718153509.aspx

Each of these people and media outlets incorrectly claimed the number of uninsured to be 40 to 50 million Americans. The actual total is open to debate. But there are millions of people who should be excluded from that tally, including: those who aren’t American citizens, people who can afford their own insurance, and people who already qualify for government coverage but haven’t signed up.

Government statistics also show 45 percent of those without insurance will have insurance again within four months after job transitions.

Accounting for all those factors, one prominent study places the total for the long-term uninsured as low as 8.2 million – a very different reality than the media and national health care advocates claim.

The Kaiser Family Foundation, a liberal non-profit frequently quoted by the media, puts the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for current government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 13.9 million and 8.2 million. That is a much smaller figure than the media report.

You just demonstrated that the information is not that hard to find. Most people are willfully ignorant on this subject, and/or like Harlan, relying on anecdotes about cracks and fissures in the system to influence them that we need a fundamental change towards universal systems that have been shown to reduce overall quality of care and access to care in almost every place they've been tried.

[Harlan Huckleby]

a fundamental change towards universal systems that have been shown to reduce overall quality of care and access to care in almost every place they've been tried.

speaking of willful ignorance, did you watch any of this documentary when it was on the telly:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

The rumor that the choice is between a free market and horrible government run hospitals is propoganda.

[Harlan Huckleby]

I am dissappointed that conservatives think that there is an acceptable number of uninsured people.

And the "things aren't so bad" attitude shocks me. The ineptness and inefficiency of the current system is pretty clear to me, as are the people who are left out, and the small businesses that are being strangled.

[HowardRoark]

I am dissappointed that conservatives think that there is an acceptable number of uninsured people.

And the "things aren't so bad" attitude shocks me. The ineptness and inefficiency of the current system is pretty clear to me, as are the people who are left out, and the small businesses that are being strangled.

I agree with everything you say. And I think that there should not be uninsured people. The uninsured are the ones that we have been wai.......oh, wait a minute; I mean the uninsured are the ones that make the system inefficient.

[mraynrand]

a fundamental change towards universal systems that have been shown to reduce overall quality of care and access to care in almost every place they've been tried.

speaking of willful ignorance, did you watch any of this documentary when it was on the telly:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

The rumor that the choice is between a free market and horrible government run hospitals is propoganda.

The inability to understand the meaning of 'towards' is pathetic